Is America Better Off Now Than We Were 6 Years Ago?

[romantico]

Posted: 7/6/06 at 8:51pm

Okay, I know the answer to this question. Its obvious! I know I'm preaching to the choir,but this is for the few Bush lovers on this board.

I know a few Die hard Republicans who Love George W.Bush & will defend him no matter what. Period. End of statement. So, I ask these people the simple question, 'are we better off now than we were 6 years ago?' I felt alot safer under Clinton's watch & even under Bush sr.'s watch. I'm asking Bush lovers to answer my question & defend their loyalty to him. IMO, I think these people are loyal to their party but NOT their country.Its not only our right but our duty to question our leaders. Just look at what America has become since January 2001. Do these Bush supporters actually think our founding fathers would be proud? Like I said, I have asked this question for a couple years now to my right wing co-workers & rather than discussing the subject or answering my question I get personal insults & attempts at discrediting me. I'm surprised how a simple question can make these people so angry & defensive.

I'm not looking for a fight or name calling. I'm looking for an honest & open dialogue. I have learned many things while debating & I am sometimes wrong. So, having said that I'm looking for someone to convince me or least try to have me see things from their point of view.

Are we better off now?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/6/06 at 10:08pm

despite the fact that i disagree with the premise of the question as it relates to america, i'll try to answer as best i can. of course we felt safer prior to 2001, the attacks that came in the fall of that year shattered that nice quiet oblivion in which america had slumbered. now, of course not everyone felt that safe. 1993 had seen an attack on the wtc and 1995 saw oklahoma city, 1998 the embassy bombings in nairobi and tanzania, so some people were aware that things were not as peaceful as they seemed. but the audacity of the 9/11 attacks shocked the rest of america out of the secure feeling that two oceans had for generations instilled.

if it's a question of simple security, i'd say yes we are safer as american citizens in america. islamist zealots are being dispatched to allah with frightening frequency from iraq and afghanistan. a theocracy was toppled in afghanistan, a dictator sits in jail in iraq and american troops hunt insurgents daily proving wrong the foolish notion that america had no stomach for engaging the nihilists of the jihadi movement in a protracted engagement. a notion that had emboldened al qaeda to think that they could strike america with impunity and one that had been strengthened in recent years by retreats from lebanon under reagan and somalia under clinton. the idea that america would answer massacres with a few cruise missiles and strong words in the u.n. had to be put to rest. as did the idea that the status quo in the middle east was acceptable. the invasions of afghanistan and iran accomplished those goals. freeing 25 million people from a reign of terror and murder was icing on the cake.

i for one feel safer that the threats of the world are being met head on by warriors who understand how horrible war truly is. that's the wonder of the greatest force ever assembled in the history of mankind: the american military. a truly integrated society (dodt notwithstanding) demonstrating the ability of people of every color and creed to work together to help people who have known ethnic and religious strife as a way of life. i am much more comfortable with the american military being the face seen by the world as opposed to bureaucrats.

the larger question of is america better off is really a subjective question that is personal to each and every american. the country survived a recession at a time of war and now is posting strong economic growth with record tax receipts. unemployment is at 4.6%, less than the 5.1% it was during clinton's re-election year of 1996 but more than the 4.0% he saw in 2000. the deficit is still growing, but that's manageable as the war will not last forever, not will its drag on the economy. gas prices are through the roof, but a president has very, very limited abilities to control the price of gas. too many people want too much oil for gas prices to come down and it's time that america saw what the rest of the world did with gas prices anyway. such is the cost of america allowing its refining capacity to dwindle to next to nothing. real income is down, but that's more to do with the fact that the global market has made it more profitable for manufacturers to look elsewhere for their blue collar labor. until the uaw recognizes that fact and adjusts its contracts accordingly, the auto industry will continue to hemorrhage jobs.

do i think we're better off? yes. does it feel like it? no. but sometimes a country must take a stand and i believe that we needed to do so and that despite the short term consequences that history will lionize us for doing so.

on the other hand, the tone of politics and public discourse in america is worse than it was even during the impeachment of bill clinton and that hurts the country. i never thought i'd see it worse than that. blame for that can be distributed on both sides, but the party in power must assume the brunt of the responsibility whether i think they are truly to blame or not. so, in my mind, appearances and feelings around here to the contrary, yes, we are better off.

[romantico]

Posted: 7/6/06 at 10:27pm

Papa, even though I disagree with your post I do understand your point of view. I feel Bush has divided this country like no other President in the history of the United States has done before. I also see nothing positive as far as accomplishments go. All Bush has done is given himself more power & taken away rights of ours in the name of national security. This has a familiar ring to it, using fear to seek power. I think the overall sign that we are not better off is how we are viewed worldwide. Bush has made us look like arrogant bullies & I honestly believe that will hurt us in the long run. All that plus us going to war based on lies make us look like people who take what we want & are thirsty for power. Bush has done all this & more. There is no longer any middle class. Your either rich or poor. Just look at all the corporations who have benefitted from the war in Iraq. Look at who has been awarded multi million dollar contracts. Look at all the soldiers who have been killed. And for what? Bush WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS BEING THE WORST US PRESIDENT WE HAVE EVER SEEN.I only hope & pray that we learn from the mistakes Bush has mae. Something tells me we won't.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/6/06 at 10:32pm

surprisingly enough i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. however, if that last post is the way you hold conversations with those from whom you'd like to elicit responses about the state of the country that differ from your own, the response you described in your first post is not surprising either.

[Cruel_Sandwich]

Posted: 7/6/06 at 10:33pm

Cycles cycles cycles cycles.

[romantico]

Posted: 7/7/06 at 12:02am

Well Papa, its like this. I agree with you. We'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how anyone can say we're better off now than we were 6 years ago. I'm taking into account that 911 did change things. I also think Bush gets blamed things thats not really his fault. I am in no way defending him, but at times think he gets a bum rap.However, you & I both know that if 911 happened on Clinton's watch or even a democrat who was in office, the rules would change. We impeached a President over lying about a blow job.I think lying about a war is more serious. Its funny but 6 years ago the worst thing us Americans could comprehend was the sex life of our President. 911 really made us wake up. If Clinton was in office during 911, theres no doubt in my mind that Ken Starr would have him tared & feathered & thrown into jail. The rightwing would spin this like you wouldn't believe.

Only ones who are doing well now are those who are very wealthy. papa, you may be very well off financially & maybe thats why you support this President so much. Let me ask you this.

Wehre do you stand on homosexuality? Do you believe its a sin? A deviant lifestyle like most in the GOP? Do you feel gays should be allowed to marry & have basic human rights?

I ask this question because of the compnay we're in on this board & well, thats usually the first that comes to my mind when I see someone post in favor of Bush or the Republican party.This will give me a better understanding of your views & help me understand some of your thoughts on your posts.

Like all Republicans I encounter, I usually find something that I agree with them on & I am hoping to do the same with you. I feel judging someone on their political beliefs alone is Un-American.I'm just trying to get various viewpoints on those who defend Bush.It helps me in my debates. Thanks!

[skeetshooter]

Posted: 7/7/06 at 12:05am

No, I don't think its better off, but I guess its in what way you mean.

[chealion313]

Posted: 7/7/06 at 12:10am

I've never been a Bush supporter, but felt compelled to answer this anyway. Do I think we're better off now? No, not at all. As for the war issue, I could only wish that the government would see more of a need to be protecting our country and taking care of issues going on here instead of helping out the rest of the world. With terrorism, I live 15 minutes from NYC and yeah, I do get scared sometimes going through the Lincoln Tunnel or riding in the subways because you just never know what could happen or who you're sitting next to, but I think that's because we're far more aware of the threat to this country than we were years ago, so it's always on our minds.

I think the biggest problem that's taking place now in this country that didn't take place before the Bush administration is the separation between conservatives and liberals. With so many debates going on with regard to gay marriage, decency, religion, etc., it's seriously dividing this country and that starts with an extremely conservative president. Unfortunately it seems as though the conservatives are forcing their views on liberals and in the end, not everyone can be treated equally.

Unfortunately we can't do much of anything to change it other than to hope for two quality candidates running for president in 2008.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 7/7/06 at 12:13am

Like that's going to happen.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/7/06 at 12:35am

I think there are fundamentally two separate issues.

The first is the geopolitical issue that papa has addressed.

He and I disagree fundamentally on this issue, but I appreciate that there is a chance, 20 or even 50 years from now, that the experiment launched in Iraq - which I believe is an attempt to try and force Democracy into the middle east, may in fact work. But the fact remains that Bush started a war with a country and a leader that had nothing to do with 9/11. He effectively decided to play Frankenstein with another country in order to try and re-shape the Middle East. I had no problem with invading Afghanistan and removing the Taliban. I wish Bush would have remained focused on that objective rather than following the Neo-cons into Iraq.

I do not believe in pre-emptive wars, and believe that many of the systematic problems that enable radicalism to flourish are due to economic and political institutions that skew wealth, opportunity and education to those already in power. I do not think the problem can be solved by force, and unless you address the underlying economic problems that make radicalism attractive, you will never solve the problem.

I do not think we are per se safer than we were 6 years ago, but I do not discount the possibility that if (and it is a big if) Iraq can somehow work, that it might create some sort of democratic seed that could spread through the Mideast. But, I don't believe that is the job of our military, and disagree on a fundamental basis on wars built on pretext when the true motivation was something dreamed up among a bunch of neocons who wanted to reshape the world. Weapons of Mass Destruction was just the easiest justification to sell to the American public to support the need for War.

Domestically, I think we are much worse off - and both parties are to blame for this, as is the loss of the equal time doctrine and the explosion of private monies into political campaigns. Both parties are so busy trying to secure funding for the next election that they do no focus on the real needs of the people of this country.

I believe the economic policies of the Republicans have only helped to create a pending crises as the middle class slowly evaporates. The middle class, and the ability to capture the American dream through hard work, has been fundamental to maintaining this country's stability. So too has a strong public education system. I do not believe the "No Child Left Behind" program is something that in the long run will advance those who look to public education as a means to advance and develop - because now, instead of teaching critical reasoning, children are being taught how to take tests. We are not teaching our next generation to lead and think outside the box in our public schools. There is an argument to be made that you are creating a generation of followers, who are not being taught how to lead - just how to pass a test.

Without a vibrant middle class and a strong public education, I do not think we are in better shape now than we were 6 years ago.

I do not blame Bush for the failings of our public education system, it was severely compromised before he came into office. I do think his economic policies, while very beneficial for many at the top tax brackets, have been very destructive to the middle class and ultimately have done much more harm than good.

Finally, I think that the blurring of the lines between Church and State further compromises the greatness of this country, and the failure to pursue and federally fund cutting edge research because of a president's religious beliefs to be contrary to the best interests of this country.

But, in a word, "NO" we are not better off than we were 6 years ago.

Papa, I know we will have to agree to disagree on most of this.