"Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties"
"Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties"
#1"Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties"
Posted: 8/23/10 at 3:22pm
"As Sondheim marks his 80th birthday on the crest of a wave of celebrations both here and in New York, the adulation seems almost universal.
...and the idea that most of his shows were once branded difficult and unapproachable seems laughable."
But not at parties I've been to.
#2'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 3:36pm
This is a good article, but I completely disagree with the part you didn't quote in the third paragraph. "Times have changed... You are allowed to like both Lloyd Webber and Sondheim..."
It sure seems to me that the snooty Sondheim worshipers will still string you up for liking Lloyd Webber, and the lowest-common-denominator fans of Cats won't even entertain the notion of seeing or listening to a Sondheim show.
It's always eluded me why you can't be a fan of both. They both have their place in this world... why does it have to be one or the other?
#2'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 3:49pm
DooWahDiddy- I feel she is speaking about the younger generation of twentysomething theatregoers (like myself). I grew up seeing all sorts of theatre, but it was the Lloyd Webber spectacle shows that drew me in. I am now a lover of all things Sondheim, so much so that I concentrated many of my studies in college to his work. That said, I can still appreciate Lloyd Webber for getting me into the theatre and I will still listen to some of his shows when I want to hear something that doesn't tax the mind like Sondheim. While it is obvious to me that Sondheim is the greater artist Lloyd Webber has his place too.
David walked into the valley
With a stone clutched in his hand
He was only a boy
But he knew someone must take a stand
There will always be a valley
Always mountains one must scale
There will always be perilous waters
Which someone must sail
-Into the Fire
Scarlet Pimpernel
Updated On: 8/23/10 at 03:49 PM
Ed_Mottershead
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/20/05
#3'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 3:52pmI think it's a matter of what's perceived as "high art" versus a "popular success." Sondheim fans are intimidated by Webber's commercial success and Webber fans are intimidated by the high adulation of the erudites. It's a matter of feeling threatened that can explain much of the bitterness on both sides of the arguments. Frankly, I'm not 100% convinced that either is some kind of theatrical god, but that's an IMO only.
BroadwayEd
#4'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 3:57pmEd summed it up beautifully. My thoughts exactly.
"The sexual energy between the mother and son really concerns me!"-random woman behind me at Next to Normal
"I want to meet him after and bang him!"-random woman who exposed her breasts at Rock of Ages, referring to James Carpinello
#5'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 4:02pm
What if you like both and feel none of that?
I got into both almost simultaneously before the internet had a chance to influence me to into thinking highly of myself for liking "that wordy dude" or told me I was a dumbsh*t for liking that "that British guy" (hey, I was a kid and their names easily escaped me, lol).
I think the whole debate is just blah.
Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#6'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 4:10pmIs it in The Season that they relate the story of a party ripped apart by someone requesting the pianist play a Sondheim song? I remember the request being met with "I don't like that man, I don't like his music and I don't like the people he writes for."
#7'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 5:15pm
For me it's a matter of which shows are the most rewarding with repeated viewings/listenings. The Andrew Lloyd Webber shows with Tim Rice fall into this category - especially EVITA (which I am seeing this week at Stratford. It will be the 10th time -going back to the original Broadway production.) The later shows don't grab me. I wish I could get the emotional high from PHANTOM OF THE OPERA that others get, but it eludes me.
Yet I have good friends who are eluded the same way by SUNDAY IN THE PARK, SWEENEY TODD and INTO THE WOODS. To me these shows are not that difficult and leave you with much to consider.
25 years ago I mused that since Hal Prince worked with both, wouldn't it be neat if Sondheim and Lloyd Webber collaborated on ONE show: In some ways (I thought) they could learn a lot from each other. Lloyd Webber would benefit from Sondheim's deep understanding and analysis of character and how it affects music as well as lyric construction. Sondheim would benefit from learning about writing for a massive popular market and achieving the broad based appeal that (until then) he had not really achieved.
It was...just a thought.
Sadly in the last 25 years I have not liked any of the 8 shows Lloyd Webber has written, and in that same time Sondheim has only written 4 1/2 shows (FROGS being the 1/2) that were all immensely satisfying for me.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
Q
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/3/05
#8'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 5:34pm
"Sondheim would benefit from learning about writing for a massive popular market and achieving the broad based appeal"
I would imagine that anything he needed (or wanted) to know along those lines he covered with Mr. Hammerstein, his mentor. He made the choices he wanted to.
#9'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 5:54pm
Very true. And since 1985 I have realized that commercial success isn't all that important.
There are many shows that haven't been "commercial" successes over the last 25 years but still have long healthy lives in regional and community theatres, and that is where the real success should be measured.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#10'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 6:00pmWasn't it James Lapine who told Sondheim "I bet if we tried we could write something that would be a big hit" and Sondheim said "I have no interest in that."
#11'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:01pmJoeKV, in relation to your, "I don't like that man and his music" story, it is told in Ethan Mordden's 'Musicals of the 1970s' volume, One More Kiss. Quite a good book from an excellent author.
#12'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:14pm
"Is it in The Season that they relate the story of a party ripped apart by someone requesting the pianist play a Sondheim song? I remember the request being met with 'I don't like that man, I don't like his music and I don't like the people he writes for.' "
No, it's not in The Season. For one thing, Sondheim had only had two shows as composer-lyricist on Broadway: Forum and Whistle.
I believe the story to which you're referring is in Mordden's One More Kiss, and it's not about a pianist. It's about a man-and-woman team known for performing in operettas. They're asked to sing a Sondheim, and the man responds with something like your paraphrase. It's one of the Mordden books I don't have so I can't look it up.
My guess would be that the team is Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt simply because I can't think of too many other operetta teams of that time period. If the story is true, and it was about them, it's kind of funny in that Wrightson interviewed Sondheim in what I'm guessing was Sondheim's first television interview, on that CBS American Musical Theatre series.
That linked article repeats a popular misconception about ITW. I wanted to post a comment on it so the author doesn't repeat it again, but even though I registered, every time I try to log in, it won't take.
#13'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:28pmWhat's the popular misconception about Into The Woods?
And no one grew into anything new, we just became the worst of what we were."
#14'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:36pmThat Sondheim and Lapine were "explicitly influenced by Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment." They've both said they weren't. Sondheim's never read it, and Lapine hates it.
BroadwayNorth2
Understudy Joined: 10/7/07
#15'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:39pmI thought the popular misconception is that Act II (and its songs) are not as well constructed as Act I.
#16'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/23/10 at 11:43pm
LOL! That's certainly a popular belief. 
#17'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 12:21am
I love Act II of "Into The Woods". I will actually pop it in and just watch Act II.
I love Sondheim. Webber is ok. I do love "Evita", "jesus Christ Superstar" and "Phantom....". "CATS", not so much. I tried to like that show but after finally seeing it live, I have chosen another name for it. I just don't "get" the attraction to this show. I found "The Beautiful Game" slightly interesting and do want to hear it again. I think I like Sondheim most for the complexity of his music. JMO
Just give the world Love. - S. Wonder
chewy5000
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/1/09
#18'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 2:49amSondheim and Lloyd-Webber are like Wagner and Brahms. The perceived rivalry will always exist.
#19'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 3:04amI'm not intimidated by Mr. Webber's commercial success. He is very good at grabbing his audience with bells and whistles. However, he hasn't had a gigantic success since Phantom. I like much of his work in Sunset, but even those songs I can tell where he's trying to impress me rather than represent a character or a theme. I get what he's doing. I have nothing against it. It's just not for me. The more I listen to his songs, the more I can see what he's up to. With Sondheim, each listening peels back a layer. If people prefer Webber to Sondheim, that's their choice and their aesthetic. It has nothing to do with and doesn't diminish my own.
"Broadway...I'll lick you yet!"
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#20'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 11:01amThanks guys and apologies to Mr. Mordden!
Borstalboy
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/9/04
#21'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 12:50pmThis conversation is so 1982.
"Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.”
~ Muhammad Ali
#22'Stephen Sondheim could cause fights at parties'
Posted: 8/24/10 at 1:07pm
"With Sondheim, each listening peels back a layer."
I agree.
I also like "Sunset Blvd" by Webber.
Just give the world Love. - S. Wonder
Videos