Who the hell is "Dot"?

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:33pm

OK this discussion was being talked about in the "Sunday" thread but I figured Dot was an important enough musical theater character to get her own damn thread!

The question is this. For YEARS, when debating this show, some people have said things to me like "Well George is the smart one and Dot is kinda dumb" or "Dot is so naive" and things along that line. I, for one, have never seen that in her. I actually think George is the weaker character. I think it is Dots strength that makes her so appealing. Here are some examples.

1. Sondheim lets us know pretty early on that Dot is not what she seems and he does it in true Sondheim form.....by letting us into her mind. In the first scene of the show when she is being painted and she is speaking to George she seems as many women would at that time. Concerned with the follies and the gossip of other ladies. She seems a bit silly and beneath George. Listening to his every command while being slightly petulant. Then Sondheim does what we all love. Takes us right into her soul..

"Artists are bizarre, fixed, cold. That's you George you're bizarre fixed, cold. I like that in a man.

That line is very important. It is in that thought we realize that Dot knows exactly what she is getting into and has probably been there before. She likes that kind of man and we will find out later in the song that George is not her first artist/lover.

"Well, if you went bread
And respect
And attention,
Not to say connection,
Modelling's no profession.
(does mock poses)
If you went instead,
When you're dead,
Some more public and more permanent expression
(poses)

Of affection,
(poses)
You want a painter,
Poet,
Sculptor, preferably:
Marble, granite, bronze.
Durable.
Something nice with swans
That's durable
Forever.
All it has to be is good.
And George, you're good,
You're really good.

These are not the thoughts of someone naive or dumb. This is a pretty strong woman who knows exactly where she is in her life.

It is the next line that is most important in knowing Dot.

Your eyes, George.
I love your eyes, George.
I love your beard George.
I love your size, George.
But most, George,
Of all,
But most of all,
I love your painting...

Dot knows painting. She probably knows better than anyone. She also knows George's work. Though she will never admit it to him her secret is shown to the audience. She starts her "Love list" with the things most people would say. The eyes, hands, build. However, it is his talent that she loves "most of all". Not only is Dot smart. She is cunning as well.

Never know with you, George,
Who could know with you?
The others I knew, George.
Before we get through,
I'll get to you, too.

She seems to get off getting inside an artists head. Or at least it seems.

Dot also can recognize a rat when she sees one. She is also pretty street smart.

Dot: I hate them
George: Jules is a fine painter
Dot: I don't care, I hate them

She knows Jules has compromised his artistic integrity to suit the masses. She knows his talent is gone. Dots problems begin in the next scene...

"George likes ot be alone
sometimes he will work all night long on a painting
we've fought about that
I need sleep
I love to dream
George doesn't need as much sleep as everybody else
and he never tells me his dreams
George has many secrets"

She knows what George is, but like most lovers she tries to change him. She admires art but is not an artist. She "loves to dream" but wants to know Georges dreams as well. Someone who is not an artist can never understand that sort of concentration. Therefore she tries to humanize George at her level. The audience knows already she will not succeeed and Sondheim and Lapine know we know.

As far as Dot being insecure. Well that is tricky. Of course she is insecure but Sondheim is tricky with Dot.

"George is very very special
Maybe I'm just not special enough for him
If my legs were longer
If my bust was smaller
If my hands were graceful
If my waist was thinner
If my hips were flatter
If my voice was warm
If I could concentrate"

At first we feel bad for her because she feels she may not be good enough for George. The music slows down and we here her "if list" thinking all the while it applies to George and then she says "I'd be in the follies". So we are left wondering! It's brilliant. She seems delighted to dream about being a follies girl and than she turns it around again and says

"I probably wouldnt like it much"

She than mentions her former lovers once again:

"None of the others worked at night

This is not some girl George picked off the street. There is a very interesting history to Dot. If only we knew what it was!!

"But how George looks. He could look forever.
As if he sees you and he doesn't all at once.
What is he thinking when he looks like that?
What does he see? Sometimes, not even blinking.
His eyes. So dark and shiny.
Some think cold and black.
But it's warm inside his eyes...
And it's soft inside his eyes...
(George steps around the canvas to get paint. He glances at Dot. The eyes meet for a second, then Dot turns back to her mirror.)
And he burns you with his eyes...
And you're studied like the light.
And you look inside the eyes.
And you catch him here and there.
But he's never really there.
You want him even more.
And you drown inside his eyes..

This is a very analytical woman. She is genuinly interested and with that she becomes interesting. She is not naive. She says so herself "He is never really there". She is not blind to what is going on.

It is in this part of the show that we see Dot starting to learn what to read. She is expanding and learning because...well that is the debatable issue. Maybe she wants George to think she is smart? When all along George never thought her unspeacial or stupid. He was just too much of an artist to express it orally. George expresses through his art (like most great artists).

After her meeting with George in the park and the appearance of Louis we get the feeling Dot is becoming increasingly frustrated, not vulnerable. She already know her and George do not belong together. She needs to move on. One of my favorite parts in the show is "Everybody Loves Louis". I remember listening to this song one day and it came to me! This song is not only about Dot wanting to make George jealous or her making excuses for her giving up on George. It is a validation that Dot is, like George, special. She likes Louis but he is, like most everyone else, ordinary and Dot knows this. There is nothing worse than having no talent in art and admiring it so. You want the gift, you want the passion but it is something you can never understand yet you are like a moth to a flame! Louis is everything a woman at that time should want.

"Louis thoughts are not hard to follow
Louis art isnt hard to swallow"

"We lose things
and then we choose things
and there are Louis'
and there are Georges
well louis'
and George
but has George has George
and I need someone"

I also think Dot would never have married Louis had she not gotten pregnant. Which makes the line "Well Louis it is" She wanted "someone" well she got her cake and she ate it too....literally. She knows George will never settle down and raise a child. Even in her so called vulnerability she knows exactly how to rectify her situation.

The most heartbreaking moment for me in the show is when Dot comes to get the painting. She wants it because she wants to remember him and he won't give it up because it is the only ay he ever truly loved her....through his work. It was his expression of love for her. Later when he says he sold it you know he is lying. Also notice how Dot says to George rather matter of factly "Louis is what I THINK I need". Interesting.

The scene following Jules departure from Georges loft is perhaps the most important to the whole piece. Espcially for Dot:

"Yes run to your work George
Hide behind your painting"

She knows he loves her. She also knows he is hiding and will never come out.

"What you care for is yourself
I am something you can use"

Desperate words!!

It's because I understand that I left,
That I am leaving.

SUCH AN IMPORTANT LINE!! It is rarely discussed. I love it. It, once again, shows us Dot is completely aware of what is going on. As far as her own choices.

"Yes. George, there is:
You could tell me not to go.
Say it to me.
Tell me not to go.
Tall me that you're hurt,
Tell me you're relieved,
Tell me that you're bored-
Anything, but don't assume I know.
Tell me what you feel!

She is tired of trying to pry inside his head. She knows how he feels but she needs to hear it!!

You know exactly how I feel.
Why do you insist
You must hear the words,
When you know I cannot give you words?
Not the ones you need.
there's nothing to say.
I cannot be what you want.

I am what I do-
Which you knew,
Which you always knew,

No one is you, George.
There you agree,
But others will do, George.
No one is you and
No one can be,
But no one is me, George,
No one is me.

Dot is sad to go but she realizes she needs to move on. I love the "others will do" line.

You have a mission,
A mission to see.
Now I have one too, George.
And we should have belonged together.
I have to move on.

OK This is really long. Yes I have way too much time on my hands.

I just hate when people dismiss Dot. Her and George are equal as far as character and intrest.

[TomMonster]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:39pm

Um, yeah...

Just a character invented to drive the "point" home...

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:39pm

thiis most be the night of intellectual Sondheim threads.

very insightful!

[TomMonster]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:44pm

I know! It's not even his birthday until March...

[musicalkid]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:50pm

interesting points!

does anyone else SEE and HEAR Bernadette Peters in his mind when reading this thread, like she was right there?

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:52pm

She's the vehicle to sing "Move On"!

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 9:55pm

Jenna Russel, all the waaaay

[Fabrizio2]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 10:03pm

Jenna Russel was a fabulous Dot.


I really enjoyed reading that. I'd like to see what you have to say about some other characters from Sondheim musicals...preferably, Into the Woods.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 10:06pm

Yvonne Filius.

She was Dot in Hawaii and she would have blown them all off the stage.

And George was the fabulous opera singer, Lawrence Paxton.
Updated On: 10/26/06 at 10:06 PM

[chicolini]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 10:16pm

So Ciaron, what do you do if you're Dot? Do you stay with George or go with Louis?

That question is really open to anybody - I'm just curious because I can't make up my mind which is the "right" decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

the choice may have been mistaken
the choosing was not

whatever.

She had to be practical and find a way to provide for herself (and her child) but did she give up too soon on George? She is able to get through to Act 2 George so maybe she could have made it work in Act 1. Or is Act 2 George muted by the Dot genes he inherited and more susceptible to her influence?

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 10:56pm

Interesting analysis, Claron. I don't know that I agree on all points, but I do agree that it's a mistake to dismiss Dot as a less interesting character. On the other hand, I think that you may be going a bit too far in some of your attributions. Dot isn't stupid, but she's street smart and has emotional intelligence rather than the more high-brow intellectualism of someone educated in the upper class. Class distinction between George and Dot is inportant to consider, which is part of the reason that I love Jenna Russel's accent for the role.

Anyway, the way I see it, Dot admires George but is incapable of understanding him. This doesn't make her an idiot, given that most everyone can't understand the mind of a brilliant artist. She admires, and she wants to understand, but what most attracts her about him is that she's intrigued by the way he sees things -- the way he sees her, even though she doesn't necessarily get it.

Dot knows painting. She probably knows better than anyone. She also knows George's work.

Hmmm. She supports him because she loves him, but I'm not sure she's on the same level, and I don't think she understands his vision. She's attracted by his passion, not by the fruits of that passion. Then again, this can probably be argued.

Dot has an underlying insecurity that is rather fascinating. She feels that posing his her strength, and she loves the idea that as his model she'll be preserved forever, but I think that underneath that she has some self-worth issues. I think that her teaching herself to read is important in addressing some of this. She comes to realize, desperately though she loves George, that she deserves more.

I also think Dot would never have married Louis had she not gotten pregnant.

Disagree, I think. Dot would still have realized that George can't be what she needs and left him, and what's a single woman in 19th century France to do? I assume that you're saying that she would want to assert her independence, but from a historical perspective and given her presumed financial situation, that seems unlikely to me. I think, even not being pregnant, that she'd have ended up with Louis.

I think that the main issue when contrasting George and Dot is that they have very different types of intelligence. George is emotionally frozen, and Dot is, especially as evidenced by a lot of the lyrics you qoute, very in touch with her feelings. That said, I don't think that they're on a level playing field -- he is the genius, and she's a relatively normal woman struggling to understand him.

[jewishboy]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:27pm

Yes, musicalkid, I had to stop in the middle because I could not get Peters out of my head. She is marvelous in this role. This is her best role, actually one of the best performances by a musical actress, period.

Back to Dot... I agree that you cannot dismiss Dot. But, I do find that her character is childish and naive. This characterization comes during her first song and when she is exploring her body and being a showgirl. She might be very in touch with her wants/needs and other people's wants/needs, but she cannot keep the stable relationship with George. It takes two to make and/or brake a relationship.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:37pm

Art is all subjective. I don't think Dot saying that she loves George's paintings means that she understands them. I love a lot of things that I don't really understand, but I can look at it and say "that's pretty."

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 8:19am

I have spent my whole life surrounded by art (paintings in particular). When I said "Dot knows painting" I meant she is an avid fan of painting. She is probably obsessed with it. She is very analytical (as most fans of art are).

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 8:50am

Dot isn't an intellectual. She's George's mistress and model. She can't read. That is NOT to say that she isn't smart. But Dot's guiding force is her heart... and her emotions. She "enjoys being a girl." And she wears her heart on her sleeve.

She is attracted to George physically, as she tells us in the opening number, and she also romanticizes about artists... she finds them "bizarre," but also deeply fascinating. George is a puzzle that she wants to solve.

Unfortunately, George can't give her what she craves the most... his attention and physical devotion. I agree that George loves Dot, but like all of his romantic emotions, his love is bottled up inside. He is an "internal romantic," and Dot is an "external romantic," and that is were their conflict lies.

Dot makes the right choice to leave him. She survives on human contact and connection... and George, as much as he loves her, can't give her that. George is incapable of putting down his paintbrush and giving her the love and attention she needs, despite the fact that he is in love with her just as much. He would die first, before he made that kind of compromise, even for a moment, and stopped painting.

So, as much as these two people care for each other deeply, they are a bad match. She moves on.

It's a very romantic story... the lovers that cannot be together.

[jewishboy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 8:57am

Nice post, best12Bbars. I agree with what you said. Just curious, but is Peters your favorite Dot?

Sondheim and his collaborators create amazing lovers. In almost every musical that Sondheim writes there are these couples which have so many layers. For me the most interesting couple is Ben and Sally. I spoend my free time just thinking about their relationship.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 10:05am

She "enjoys being a girl."

Where did you get the idea that she enjoys being a girl? I'm not arguing the comment just wondering what makes you say that. I've always thought of her as kind of tom boyish. She hates the dress she is wearing. She imagines being a follies girl and then confesses she wouldn't like it much.

She is attracted to George physically, as she tells us in the opening number, and she also romanticizes about artists... she finds them "bizarre," but also deeply fascinating. George is a puzzle that she wants to solve.

Sure she is attracted to him physically but how can you dismiss the end of that line "but most of all I love your painting". That is the most important line.

If George is a puzzle she wants to solve wouldnt that make her a bit intellectual?

Unfortunately, George can't give her what she craves the most... his attention and physical devotion. I agree that George loves Dot, but like all of his romantic emotions, his love is bottled up inside. He is an "internal romantic,"

No he's not. His feelings are expressed through his painting. That is the whole tragedy of the piece.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 10:10am

She "enjoys being a girl."

Where did you get the idea that she enjoys being a girl?


---Only the ENTIRE scene of her in front of the mirror.

Look, guy, these are MY opinions. You can spend a lot of energy and argue them all you'd like... but they're still my opinions.

jewishboy---Bernadette will always be "Dot" for me. When I visited the Chicago Art Institute and viewed the actual painting, I was very surprised to see, even in an abstract way, the likeness of the figure of "Dot" to Bernadette Peters in that show. Perhaps my mind was playing tricks on me, but I would have sworn it was her. Very surreal.

Updated On: 10/27/06 at 10:10 AM

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 10:36am

---Only the ENTIRE scene of her in front of the mirror.

I wasn't arguing. I was just asking. It's just amazing how people take different things from different pieces. Guess that is the whole point of art. I see the scene in front of the mirror as something totally different. The whole follies number is a trick. You are led to believe this is a life she wants and then she turns it around at the end with "I wouldnt like it anyway". I also think Dot realizes she is somewhat of a tom-boy with her list of ifs (if my legs were longer). I don't know. All a matter of opinion I guess.

Audra is my favorite Dot. Than Bernadette. Maria Friedman was a pretty good Dot too.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:38am

All right, Ciaron, if you're not arguing and you're ASKING why my comments were made on George and Dot, then I will address them.

I'm just not at all interested in a "combative" approach to any opinion. It's boring, and you'll have to spar with someone else.

My first comment is on your last post. I don't think Dot is lying to herself in front of the mirror. She is a physical person... and she feels that if she were physically more appealing, George would like her more. She definitely wants to change her innate nature... and she struggles to do so... she tries to understand George... she learns to read because it will please HIM, not because it's on her own list of "things to do." She brushes off the "follies" at the end of this scene, because she realizes it isn't going to get her anywhere with George. It would be only for herself... not for him. And ultimately, what she wants is HIM, because she is in love with him.

The scene in front of the mirror serves two purposes... Dot sings an inner monologue that shows her conflicts about what she inherently likes, what she wants to be, and what she wishes she was for George... and at the same time, she is primping, and primping, and posing and obsessing on her physical features... and kicking up her legs "enjoying being a girl."

George is "primping" away at his canvas at the same time... but his inner-monologue is mostly about his struggles to connect with Dot.

As far as Dot being an intellectual because she wants to solve the puzzle that is George... I don't think you have to be an intellectual to enjoy puzzles... neither does Fisher-Price. Everyone likes to solve mysteries and puzzles.

She fell in love with his painting first, then the physical man... and it pretty much ended there... she can't get through to him. He puts a canvas up in the way as a "proxy" every time she tries to connect to him as a human being.

And that's what I meant by internalizing his romantic feelings. His painting is an outlet for his emotions, and a reflection of the way he feels... trying to figure out humanity and himself and the world around him... but it is not a substitute for two humans connecting one-on-one as people. But this is the best that George can do... and for Dot, it ultimately isn't enough... which is why she leaves him.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:47am

best13bars you are making Dot too one dimensional (IMO). By your logic Dots whole existance is to please George. I think she is MUCH more fleashed out than that. You're right though. It's a pointless argument.

Oh and I was not looking to spar with anyone. You need to relax. =)

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 1:59pm

Kiaron---I only get irritated by posters who are as irritating as you are.

Rest assured it won't happen again. I have no interest in your opinions or your snarky responses anymore.

Love and kisses,
best TWELVE bars

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:20pm

It's Ciaron. Not Kiaron. If you're gonna be a 12 year old you can at least spell like one. Thanks!

Love you!!

Ciaron Rian McCarthy

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:21pm

And you're too dim to realize that was intentional.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:24pm

You're ugly. =)