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#101

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 9:30am

It's pretty obvious to me that Cameron wanted to pull the same stunt he did in London, but knew he'd face controversy again. So I think he thought reorchestrating the show to compliment a much smaller orchestra would be a good alternative. But don't quote me on that.

I HATE most of the new orchestrations. They drain the show of that fiery passion it used to have. It now sounds thin and cold. I'm personally extremely upset about this.

Those of you in London - be thankful that at least your production uses John Cameron's original orchestrations. It could be much, much worse than synths.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#102

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 1:18pm

My Oh My, they're not using the full John Cameron Orchestrations in London. It's smaller. They brought in the Sinfonia Sythisizer thing to replace the strigns and there are less brass I think too. Not as small as Broadway, but not as big as the original.

The rain we knew is a thing of the past -
deep-delving, dark, deliberate you would say
browsing on spire and bogland; but today
our sky-blue slates are steaming in the sun,
our yachts tinkling and dancing in the bay
like racehorses. We contemplate at last
shining windows, a future forbidden to no one.

Derek Mahon

"Maybe all one can do is hope to end up with the right regrets."

Arthur Miller

#103

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 2:11pm

They've only been slightly adapted to suit the reduced number of instruments. They've been doing that for the 3rd national tour for years. I believe Seann Alderking was responsible for past adaptations. They'd merely reassign certain instruments to others, such as switching from a piccolo trumpet to a regular one, or assigning the string section to a keyboard. They're still basically the same orchestrations, unlike the revival ones which are so different, it's depressing.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

Updated On: 7/1/07 at 02:11 PM

#104

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 2:22pm

There has been ( as I have said in the past) and ongoing debate between the musicians union and the producers of broadway shows. The producers would rather have a computer in the pit to be able to use that money for other things other then musicans. The musicans would rather that they are in the pit instead of a computer that way they have a job. The producers downsized the number of people in the pit that way they can save money and the musicans have get a job. It is a compromise but at least they are in the pit at all.

I do agree that I am not all in favor of the new orchestrations but I do like them at points during the show. Camron use the money that he could have spent on extra musicans for things like paying the actors more money and hiring a crew that was new york based ect.

Many broadway shows go on broadway knowing that the orchestra is going to be small so they base the orcchestrations around that sou you don't hear the difference. Les Miserables had been around before orchestra cuts were used by producers and after they began. You can clearly hear it in the new production.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#105

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 3:15pm

Oh, I'm completely aware of why they've done this - to save money.

However, I feel it's a blatant degradation of the show. It's one thing to stuff a cheap midi machine into the pit. It's another to throw out the show's award-winning original orchestral score in favor of a bunch of bombastic drums and tinny sounding brass that evoke nowhere near the emotional intensity that the show is so known for.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#106

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 3:24pm

I disagree. I do think that there are points in the show where the orchestrations are not so good and others where they are fitting fine. I personally would rather that they have the new orchestrations then stick a midi computer in the pit. I don't think the new orchestrations take away from the score and the story. I look at it as different not worse or better then the original. I do think that the new orchestrations do have a different feel and come across differntly if you see the Broadhurst production live and hear it from a bootleg on youtube. Having done both I can tell you that they come across better live.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#107

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 3:35pm

Nah, I'd rather have the original orchestrations back. I've tried liking the revival ones, but simply can't. Most of them are terrible compared to the originals.

The orchestrations that fit in fine are the very few ones they didn't change for the revival or only slightly changed. For example, the Bishop sequence, Bring Him Home, Empty Chairs At Empty Tables, and A Heart Full of Love are basically the same as before.

Keep in mind that I am speaking for myself and not trying to say I'm right. The bottom line is most of the new orchestrations are awful, to me. I respect others who like them, but I never will. You just don't go in and change a show's well-known, definitive orchestrations after 20+ years.

"I do think that the new orchestrations do have a different feel and come across differntly if you see the Broadhurst production live and hear it from a bootleg on youtube. Having done both I can tell you that they come across better live."

I'm flying to NYC to see it later on this month, and I keep hoping that they do sound better live. Though I will still be upset over the different arrangements. I know the originals by heart and they just speak to me.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

Updated On: 7/1/07 at 03:35 PM

#108

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 8:35pm

If you had a full orchestra in the pit and compared it to a computer and a few musicians, the difference in sound quality (and indeed quantity) would be immense. I'd love to have an orchestra the size of the Royal Opera House one in the pit for Les Mis...but it 'aint gonna happen.

#109

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 9:43pm

Agreed.

This show is just too amazing for words when there is a nice orchestra in the pit and the original orchestrations are played. I miss that full, rich, lush sound. Bummer.

Btw, I'm not saying that I want them to put a computer in the pit. I'm just saying that I'd prefer what they have in London now over the new orchestrations. I was actually furious upon finding out what they did to the London orchestra. I don't in any way think it's a good idea, but it's better than the new orchestrations, in my opinion.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#110

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 10:29pm

and how old are you?

#111

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/1/07 at 10:52pm

What does that have to do with what we're taking about?

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#112

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/2/07 at 4:52am

The only difference between the ochestra changes in the London proudction and the Broadway production is this. When they re orchestrated theshow in London they brought in a computer to fill in the ga for the rest of the members of the pit that weren't there any more. However, if they did that on Broadway then the union would have a feald day. They would be pissed. This goes back to what I ahve said about the producers wanting to downsize the orchestras. they would rather there be a computer because it coasts money but the unions are wroking hard to make sure that this doesn't happen. I think that the union in some shows are learning to deal with the number of people that are currently in the pit. They wish it could be more like it was in the past but they are not complaining due to the fact that they know they are lucky to have a job at all. They could just easilly be replaceed with a computer and they know it.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#113

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/2/07 at 5:01am

You can't possibly mean that what you wrote above details the ONLY changes between the current London and Broadway productions.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you - and I apologize if I am - but they've clearly reorchestrated about 75% of the show for the revival. That in itself is a major change from the London production.

I'm not talking about the reduced number of instruments - in that sense, you're right - but I'm referring to the reorchestration, which is nowhere near what it used to be.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

Updated On: 7/2/07 at 05:01 AM

#114

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/3/07 at 12:00pm

I wouldn't call it a CHEAP midi thing either! lol x

**You Can't Beat A Matcham!**

#115

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/3/07 at 12:05pm

Well, it's "cheap" compared to a real, full orchestra. There is no way that a machine can produce the subtle, expressive nuances of real instruments and their players.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#116

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/3/07 at 4:36pm

My o My, They re orchestrated it because there are only 12 people in the pit swo they had to to make it work with the small number of people in the pit. Also, the US Actors Equity says that if a show goes over three hours in length then the crew has to be paied overtime. Towards the end of the show the overtime coasts were crepping up on Cam mac aned waws starting to be too much. Kepp in mind that the original production in length was shy over three hours. So, Cam Mac made some small changes here and there mostly cuts to make sure that the overtime charges wouldn't have to be made. Those changes were then put into the revival production.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#117

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/3/07 at 9:31pm

You're repeating info that I already know, and I feel I'm not being understood here.

My problem is this - they shouldn't have hired someone to write a new orchestral score for the show. Period.

ADAPTING the ORIGINAL orchestrations to fit a smaller orchestra - fine. But composing new ones was a bit much, in my opinion.

Also, I don't think a desire to save money is a good excuse to compromise the orchestra or orchestrations of a show. He snipped small verses and scenes here and there in order to avoid overtime costs - fine again.

The show's 3rd national tour orchestra wasn't much bigger than the current revival one, and they were able to adapt John Cameron's original orchestrations beautifully without having to completely write a new score. In fact, some songs in the revival still use the originals and they sound wonderful, despite the smaller orchestra. So that proves they could've remained. I will never understand why they felt the need to have someone else come in and compose a completely different orchestral score for most of the show. The originals were perfect and could've easily been adpated to fit the current revival orchestra. With the new ones, it sounds like a different show in most places. For example - "Lovely Ladies" doesn't have the raunchy sound it used to have, which set the mood perfectly. The new orchestration makes it sound like the circus is in town. It's awful.

Have you heard the new orchestrations? If you haven't, PM me.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

Updated On: 7/3/07 at 09:31 PM

#118

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/4/07 at 3:07am

I have seen the tour towards the end prior to it closing to go to broadway. They had a smaller orchestra and it wasn't nearly as small compared to the current broadway company first of all. And, secondly it sounded like a hybrid between the new orchestrations and the old one. The revival has the smallest size orchestrations of any professional production of the show in North America. True that getting rid of the current orchestrations changes things artisticly. But, producers do look at it as more of a business model then an artistic one.

Let me give you some facts about the Broadway orchestra union that I just found out. The local 802 is the musicions union and the prouducers reached a deal years ago. One part of the deal is tht the producers are not allowed to cut back members of the pit. If they open a show with 20 members in the pit and they have an amazing first year but start to go down hill after that, they can't cut back members of the pit. A move which is smart on the part of the union because that insures that musicians have jobs. This the reason that a show like Phantom doesn't cut back on the number of people in the pit and the same really goes for any long running broadway musical.

I think that the reason why Cam Mac decided to re do the orchastrations is this. When he decided to do the revival he didn't know if it was going to get the kind of reaction it did. So he cut down the size of the orchestra due to he fact that he was carefully spending money. The orchestrations needed to be changed because they don't work with the original orchestrations if it is 12 peaces. And if he started the show with a full size Les Miserables orchestra and it was a total bomb he couldn't cut back. So, I think it was his way of planning for the feature and being careful. He didn't know if it would be a hit and he created a situation that would work eaither way.

This is at least my thought.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#119

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/4/07 at 3:51am

Good theory and I'm inclined to agree. Though I still think he made a dreadful mistake in putting other factors ahead of the orchestrations. They are one of the most important things for a show like Les Mis. Again, reducing it is not so much a problem, but he shouldn't have hired someone to write a new, inferior sounding score. The tour orchestra only had 18 members. I still say they could've adpated the originals to be played by the current orchestra.

Like "On My Own," it now sounds horrible - just a shadow of the intensity it used to have. "One Day More" sounds so weak, it's a joke. The first notes of the show sound so thin and tinny, they make me want to barf.

Though I think the worst is "Lovely Ladies," "What Have I Done" (they eliminated the gorgeous string melody that accompanied that song and made it so expressive and soaring), "Stars," "Look Down" (it's nothing but drums), and "On My Own." They ruined those songs.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

Updated On: 7/4/07 at 03:51 AM

#120

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/4/07 at 1:52pm

Keep in mind My Oh My, that in London there are only five actuall instruments in the pit and the rest is done by computers. I would rather have 12 instruments with so so orchestrations and actally have a orchestra rather then have the entier thing done by computer. I got this information because someone on an earlier page of this post spoke about how he worked at the London theatre where Les Miserables is playing and looked into the pit. And, saw that there was about five instruments and a computer or two.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

#121

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/4/07 at 2:40pm

But that's because the Queens Theatre pit is tiny. The Broadhurst's pit is large enough to accomodate a fairly large orchestra. There could've fit an 18 member orchestra in there easily. No excuse. They shouldn't have done what they did.

Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

#122

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 7/5/07 at 1:49am

You think Cam Mac cares about the artisticness of Les Miserables? No of course he doesn't he just wants to make a quick buck. Theatre these days is not about the art at all but more about ticket sales sad but true. You picked the wrong theatre time period for this debate. But, find me a new show that has an 18-20 person pit. They don't do those anymore. The new shows that open on broadway don't have the same large size pit that they had in the past. They realized that they could save money by reducing the pits and that has turned into just the norm on broadway. Also, a majority of the popl going into the theatre don't know the original orchestrationsat least don't know them as well as anyone on this forum to really know/care bout a differenc. American actors equity would have not let the proudciton if Cam mac didn't follow all union requierments. He couldn't put a computer in the pit in like he did in London. And, the pit in the broadahurst isn't as big as you think. The Broadhurst is somewhat smaller compared o the imperial theatre. Part of what he used as a selling point for the show at thbroadhurst is that its a smaller theatre and a more intimate setting.

"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear" Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll

Updated On: 7/5/07 at 01:49 AM

#123

re: Les Miserables

Posted: 8/6/07 at 11:17am

I have seen that the new Madame Thénardier is played by Mélanie La Barrie. Is she the first black performer to get the role (at least in the West End)?

Sarah bernhardt to a fellow actress: "Have you got stage fright, dear?" "No," the young lady aswered astonished. "Don't worry, it will come along with talent!"

#124

re: Les Miserables - Drew Sarich

Posted: 10/22/07 at 2:35pm

Drew Sarich is looking down, NOW.

p.s. Kindly post review after the show.

#125

re: Les Miserables - Drew Sarich

Posted: 1/2/08 at 3:44am

I know this is an older thread, but I'm a bit versed on the subject of this orchestration, so I wanted to chime in--I found this post on a Google search, so this info might be relevant to other people.

Regardless of what other orchestration is out there, the one I have seen is what MTI (the US licensor) puts out, which is a touring edition of the show.

Two Woodwinds, Two Horns, Two Trumpets, One Trombone
Three keyboards (Keyboard 3 is strings only)
Guitar, Bass Guitar, Drums, Percussion
Violin, Viola, and Cello, with divisi.

This is what professional and amateur theatre companies will get once the show closes. This is also what the School Edition uses, except the School Edition contains cuts.

I know that the original orchestration used an extra woodwind, and did not use a third keyboard. The reduced orchestration I'm talking about was created by John Cameron for touring productions. Why they couldn't have gotten him to reduce his own orchestration again for the revival is beyond me.

As for talk of the London production, they are using a Sinfonia computer system (which MTI recommends for amateur theatres that can't get enough players) to fill out the orchestra.

The London orchestration (should be) exactly the same as it always was--the difference is that the parts the computer is playing were recorded by an actual musician (may have been a keyboard player) and the computer itself is played in real time as an instrument by a real person. A person sits there tapping a beat on the device to the conductor's beat.

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