Baseball - Feh

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/20/05 at 10:33am

I have not been to a regular baseball game in years so the steroid issue makes no difference

I do intend to go to a cyclones game in Coney island some summer afternoon

[broadway betty]

Posted: 3/20/05 at 5:50pm

This whole steroids thing makes me sick! I've never been fans of the Hulk-like players and now we know why they are so 'built'. I was against Giambi coming to the Yankees cuz he's just another marketing tool for Steinbrenner, and I've always been a huge fan of Tino Martinez. And now Tino is back! Hooray!!

Before I got into Broadway, I would not miss a single pitch of a game. During the 2002 season, I went to 22 games. I'm still a big fan but I can miss a few games. I watch Yankees on YES and all my cash goes to theater tickets.

[Plum]

Posted: 3/20/05 at 7:17pm

Yeah, how dare the Yankees sign an MVP instead of hanging on to their fading first baseman for sentiment's sake?

Giambi is a far better hitter than Tino Martinez. I don't care how much you like a player- the game is won with bats and gloves, not amiability. It's that kind of attitude that kept Jorge Posada's career back as long as that lovable no-hit Girardi was around.

And Roxy, if you think players don't start on 'roids in the minor leagues, youre deluding yourself.
Updated On: 3/20/05 at 07:17 PM

[The Grovers Corners Yenta]

Posted: 3/20/05 at 8:37pm

We have several minor league teams in Connecticut. No scandals, no steroids, no big contracts.......just fun!

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 12:48pm

Oh, please. To put it very simply- Giambi's OPS in the last 5 years has been 1.123, 1.137, 1.034, .939, and .720.

Martinez' OPS in the same years- .749, .830, .776, .781, and .823.

So who's been more valuble?

And while both players are in the decline phases of their careers, Martinez is 3 years older. Remind me why he's soooo much better the Yankees should have kept him?

Giambi has been screwed over by the NYC fans and media for nothing more than not being Tino- it makes me ashamed to be one of them. This was before steroids, before anything- he was never given a chance. And even after steroids- why do you think he's the one being hounded while Gary Sheffield gets off comparatively easy? Because Sheffield (who's a far bigger asshole than Giambi could ever hope to be) didn't replace our pwecious Tino.

[liotte]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 2:22pm

GO YANKEES!!!!!!!!

[broadway betty]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 7:49pm

Well, who has the rings? What I'm saying is that I prefer Tino. The Yankees can buy all the MVP's they want, but it was guys like Tino, Brosius, and O'Neill who won the championships. Giambi hasn't done a damn thing in the playoffs!

Tino IS precious! I'll take his glove over Giambi's bat anyday!

GO YANKEES!

[Joshua488]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 7:51pm

Yenta, you're in Connecticut, too? What area?

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 7:51pm

Oh, God. The "rings" argument. I think it's best we end this argument before my head explodes.

But before I go- Jason Giambi's lifetime postseason OBP is .421, with a SLG of .481. Tino Martinez's lifetime postseason OBP is .326, with an SLG of .359. Point. Refuted.

[broadway betty]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:06pm

You can put up all the stats you want, he hasn't helped his team win. Period.

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:08pm

Because hitting, as measured by statistics, never helps you score runs, right? And runs aren't what win a game. No, sir. What wins games is evidently World Series Rings. They have totemic powers.

And it's not like the Yankees won the division every year Giambi was on the team, just like with Tino. No, sir. Updated On: 3/21/05 at 08:08 PM

[broadway betty]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:17pm

The Yankees don't need a freakin' MVP at every position! Giambi is just a trophy that Steinbrenner can put on his mantle! The Yankees don't need him to win and he hasn't helped them at all. I guess the juice out in Oakland was better!

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:27pm

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Every team wants to get as good as they can at every position. That's what it takes to win. You don't hang on to a player when you have a superior alternative just because the first player is a likeable guy. If you do things that way, you'll end up with a team of- yes, I'm saying it- lovable losers.

If the Yankees had kept Tino instead of getting Giambi, they would have won fewer games in the past few years. Simple as that. When a player gets on base and hits with power, he creates runs, and runs win games. The stats show plainly that Giambi has consistently gotten on base more and hit with more power than Martinez. Therefore, he creates more runs, which in turn help the team win. Giambi's the better player. End of story. Updated On: 3/21/05 at 08:27 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:27pm

The funny thing is that even with the steroid mess, Pete Rose is still banned. Say what you want about him, his records are unquestionable. What he did was after his playing days were over. The fact that some of these bulked up bozos may make the Hall of Fame & Rose many not is a bit much

If Bonds gets in, so should Rose

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:29pm

Are you so sure Rose wasn't on greenies or anything else? He's a dirtbag who quite likely bet on the outcome of his own team's games. And the fact that we let one sleazeball in (the Ty Cobb example) doesn't mean we've lowered the bar for all of them.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 8:39pm

Oy, not sure I wanna get involved in this, but as a huge Yankee fan, I can't not.

I disagree about Giambi never being given a chance before steroids, sure he replaced Tino, but Tino replaced Don Mattingly, come on. I know plenty of fans who of course missed Tino but were happy with the acquisition at the time.

Those that have started nagging on Giambi these past couple of years have done so because he is not producing up to par, and what we thought we would do, at least the last year or two. That's justified.

In terms of Gary Sheffield, I dislike him too, but the reason he's getting off scott-free is he's chicken and claimed he "accidentally" used steroids, it has nothing to do with who each replaced.

And now for my own version of the Tino-Giambi argument. Here's the best way I can put it...at the time Giambi was acquired, he certainly was better than Tino and it made sense for the organization. And if Giambi was producing a lot better than Tino, then there's nothing one can say against it. However, like last year, or we'll see from here, at times when he or the Yankees were in a slump, sucking, etc. I would have watched my '96-'01 Yankees if they had the record of the '92 Mets because I had such a connection and I loved that team--not just for the rings. I don't feel the same connection to this current team and while I'm a huge Yankee fan and nothing changes, I can totally see why fans tend to miss Tino, especially in these situations when the Yanks aren't doing great(not great=losing ALCS to Red Sox). I miss Tino, Paul, Coney, etc. aww my list goes on...but yeah. Don't know if my points made sense, but it's the best I could do.

GO YANKEES!!

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 9:14pm

I disagree about Giambi never being given a chance before steroids, sure he replaced Tino, but Tino replaced Don Mattingly, come on.

Mattingly retired. Huge difference there.

Those that have started nagging on Giambi these past couple of years have done so because he is not producing up to par, and what we thought we would do, at least the last year or two. That's justified.

Giambi produced just fine his first year on the Yankees- not up to what he did with Oakland, but still MVP contender's numbers and far, far better than Martinez did in any of his years with the Yanks except maybe 1997. He still constantly got **** for not being Tino. That's not justified.

In terms of Gary Sheffield, I dislike him too, but the reason he's getting off scott-free is he's chicken and claimed he "accidentally" used steroids, it has nothing to do with who each replaced.

It makes no sense to me that the one player who just decides to be honest is the one that gets reviled. Giambi's no saint- he's not even the good guy- but he deserves better than what he's getting.

The only part of your post I can agree with is the last bit. I, too, have been feeling more and more emotionally detached from the Yankees as of late. But I don't ascribe it to Giambi- he was absolutely the best choice at the time, and I contend that even if his batting average had been 100 points lower, if the Yankees had won the 2002 World Series everyone would love him.

Because fanhood is irrational that way- or has everyone forgotten the case of Roger Clemens? Big-time acquisition, former MVP, replaced a well-loved player (David Wells, asshole supreme, not that anyone seemed to care)...Clemens was too well-established as an antagonistic personality to ever be really loved, I think, but the rings got him accepted. Giambi had the misfortune of replacing Tino and coming in the wrong year. It's not his fault. And the only year he didn't produce well was last year- before that he was always one of the team's top 2 hitters, and far better than the man he replaced, and I don't know what more you want from the guy.

It's after 2002 that I think acquisition strategy on the Yankees started to spiral out of control. But even if I'm not totally attached to them, I'm not going to irrationally revile the current players because of it.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 10:58pm

You twisted some words, Plum. In terms of Giambi's production, I cited the last couple of years because I do remember he was very good his first year and at least I wasn't at all disappionted that year, can't speak for all others though.

And no, I don't think it was a huge difference between Mattingly and Tino--Mattingly was just beloved, and when Tino was bad the first couple of months, he really heard it, it took him a little while to get loved. Personally, i think it was harder for Tino.

I agree about Giambi and Sheffield--I'm not saying I agree with how others are incorrectly perceiving it but it is unfair Giambi is the biggest villian for being honest, I never said I liked Sheffield.

And when I mentioned being more detached from the Yankees, I am not at all banking that on one player, it's the whole team. It's not just that I liked Tino(as a person) more than Giambi, I liked Tino, Paul, Coney, etc. more than...Sheffield, Kevin Brown, etc. I actually do really like Moose though, he's one of the few newer ones that I really like.

[Plum]

Posted: 3/21/05 at 11:28pm

I have to agree that to me, Sheff and Brown are just expensive pickups as far as personality goes. It doesn't change how irrational it is to wish that we'd just kept Tino all along. Doing that could have cost the Yankees the division these past few years. And arguing that the rings make the player in spite of all statistical evidence is just nonsensical, and something I've seen often enough that it irritates me on sight. I'm sorry I've been so harsh in this thread, but the attitude evinced in some of the posts here just drives me up the wall.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/22/05 at 12:19am

Ehh, some Yankee fans, like players, might argue that seasons are only mentioned in World Series wins, and that since the Yankees don't have any with Giambi, if they didn't win the World Series anyway, they might as well have kept Tino becuase he's more well-liked. Can't really comment on this, though I am worried about how Giambi will play this year without the steroids and I think that contributed to his abomidable season last year. If he ends up putting up similar numbers and having a lot of injuries in the next couple of years, I might just say I wish they kept Tino...I'm honestly not there yet, though I'm thrilled he's back.

I agree about the rings, but there are certain cases where I think it is slightly valid--Jeter for instance, because he contributed to much to getting the rings because of his amazing post season numbers. Back in the days when I always had the Jeter/A-Rod arguments, I never argued that Jeter was necessarily better than A-Rod, but that he was better for the Yankees because when the Yankees really needed him, in October, nobody stepped up like him.

But let's stop the arguing--look at the bright side, we all have good taste in baseball teams. I'd much rather be arguing with you than Red Sox or Met fans...I love it when Met fans tell me that the Yankees suck.

[Plum]

Posted: 3/22/05 at 1:55pm

Jeter's not clutch. Not one Yankee is clutch except for Mariano Rivera. Some of them are un-clutch- Posada's usually tired out by that time of year from his heavy catching duties- but most of them do slightly worse during the postseason, just like most players, because the level of competition is higher then than during the regular season. In other words, they play at the same level they always do.

While it's true that the player with the best statistics isn't always the player you want to get, I think such cases are the exception rather than the rule.

And maybe I'm being over-optimistic, but I think there's a chance Giambi could suprise us all this year.
Updated On: 3/22/05 at 01:55 PM