Dan Choi Involuntarily Committed- Page 2

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:14pm

PJ, I know that. And that's why I say we have to do a sort of benefit analysis. Is there enough of a payoff in dealing with X's craziness that we see any positive results at all?

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:26pm

All I know is that I completely support gay rights, and Dan Choi annoys the crap out of me.

I have a similar reaction to him as I did to Cindy Sheehan - I agree with his general position, but he seems to add a dose of utter narcissism that makes me wince and just turn the page.

[Q]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:27pm

Just so I'm understanding, the contention is that the national focus on DADT repeal was happening anyway, and Dan was just an opportunist who showed up to take advantage of the publicity?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:39pm

Nope, not "just". I'm with YWIW. Cindy Sheehan's activism and the people who enabled her gave her a platform to go completely, understandably crazy with the lights and the cameras trained on her.

Same with Choi. The cults of personality of these two strike me with their similarity.

I just think the press release announcing that he wasn't going to do a press release captures the very essence of what's annoying about Choi.

[Q]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:42pm

Ok, I'll buy that. But, I do think he nudged the debate past the 'sweeping under the carpet' that was being attempted. What's happened since then is what it is. In my mind, I think of Larry Kramer.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:46pm

No, that is not how I view him (I cannot speak for anyone else).

I think he got a bit caught up in the whole celebrity of the repeal movement, and every single thing was processed through that lens.

I used to follow him on Twitter, and supported him, but after a while, I began to have a visceral, negative reaction to him, even though I totally agree with his position.

I really don't care if he sells books or gets a speaking fee - everyone has to make a living. I just think there is a very fine line between political activist and political opportunist, and sometimes to me he crossed the line.

Again, I am speaking only for me.

ETA: I posted before I saw Q's response. If DADT is repealed, I do think that Choi deserves credit for keeping the issue front and center.

Updated On: 12/16/10 at 02:46 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:10pm

Could someone recap what exactly Choi did to get DADT repealed? To me he's like those annoying Facebook campaigns that "raise awareness" of something without actually accomplishing anything.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:31pm

Hey--I find many of his tweets annoying. Anytime there was a set back, he'd seethe against Obama and anyone else who didn't handcuff themselves to the White House fence, too.

But I respect him for fighting the fight. And, I suspect a great number of people are bitter that he rose up in the activist spotlight instead of themselves. Clearly, he was doing something right to get where he has gotten. And, I absolutely believe he is a part of why we could see the end of DADT soon. To take that away from him is very misguided no matter his flaws. And, to mock his personal problems of the moment is shameful.

It just seems that a number of people like to sit around a message board and bitch about nothing getting done and then when someone does do something and we don't agree exactly with how they do it, we tear them down.

We are NEVER all going to agree on how to tackle equal rights issues. Sure there should be criticism and debate. But tearing each other apart does makes things awfully easier for the right.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:37pm

I'm not tearing him apart, I'm just pointing out when people go public with their personal struggles and link them to a larger movement, become posterboys or postergirls for a while, and go CRAZY, then you're left with a crazy person. You can say, sure, he's crazy but he accomplished something. I'm just saying, sure, he accomplished something, but he's crazy.

"In my mind, I think of Larry Kramer."

Indeed. Indeed!

[Q]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:39pm

Joe - I'm not sure it's even what he did, per se, as much as what he was touted as. When he came out on Rachel's show, the government was very much in a mode of 'we'll handle this our way, and you should just be patient and quiet about it'. For whatever reason, he was made the 'face' of the debate by the media, and the attempts to just keep it all under the radar weren't as successful. I do think his willingness - for whatever reason - to be so public has kept it progressing, as opposed to letting it simmer in the background. Without his presense, all we might have been left with was the HRC, and that doesn't leave much at all.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 4:23pm

Sounds like Dan Choi is the Tom Cruise of DADT.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 4:38pm

But it was never "under the radar." It was a campaign issue and addressed by the president in the state of the union. It may be taking longer than anyone wanted but when (Do I need to say "IF"?) it's passed, it won't be because Dan Choi chained himself to the White House gates.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:00pm

Joe, you don't know that. You don't know that the attention he has brought to this in addition the work of many others hasn't helped us reach 70% and now 77% support by the country. Or all that support in the military survey. Or the potential yes votes from blue dogs Dems and moderate GOP. He's been a major part of the discussion for quite some time now. Like it or not, the media made him the face of the issue.

I don't care if there's ego involved. I'm not going to crap on someone who has been DOING.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:02pm

No. Nononono. HE made himself the face available to the media.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:03pm

Oh Jesus. How dare he!

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:12pm

""Harry Reid is a ****," Choi angrily said after the failed vote in the Senate last month, vowing to speak out about the Democratic leader, "and he'll be bleeding once a month.""

With quotes like this from Mr. Choi, I'd rather he just STFU.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:16pm

JRB, my point is when you perpetuate "the media made him the face" stories you're completely removing his agency, as if he hasn't sought out the spotlight every chance he could. "The media did it" plays into the whole hero narrative which hinges on the notion that he was the only one "man enough" to step into a leadership vaccuum. It's as if his ambition and drive to make himself the face of his own movement would somehow taint his purity, and the reason his collapse is happening is because his purity isn't pure.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:20pm

I suspect that's an oversimplification of his time as an activist.

As for his Harry Reid is a ***** comment, he was rightfully given a new ***hole for saying all that by many in the community.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:24pm

I think things get messy when a crazy person becomes a spokesperson and gets used to people giving him a pass on his craziness, because eventually patience runs out. And what happens then to the crazy spokesman? Collapse.

Or, as Choi seems to want to label it: "a nervous breakdown," even though that label really hasn't been used since the 1960s, but somehow it seems appropriate for our very own military Blanche DuBois.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:34pm

The post from a guy who served with Mr. Choi was also very telling.

Why are gays making him out to be some sort of hero?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:40pm

Because there is a perceived vacuum and a need for mythology.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:41pm

I like unicorns.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:57pm

If it were not for Unicorns putting a one-horned face on this issue, DADT would not be repealed.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/17/10 at 6:45pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/17/a-gay-soldiers-letter-bef_n_798417.html

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/18/10 at 6:51am

It has always been the responsibility of the radical to move the center to the left.

If not for Dan Choi, the "face" and the anti-DADT movement would have been Joe Solmonese.

You're not supposed to LIKE radicals. You're supposed to NOTICE them.