Now that the "new movie musicals" fad has crashed and burned...- Page 2
Now that the "new movie musicals" fad has crashed and burned...
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#25
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:46pm
I agree with you. But in the context of writing a musical, I agree with your professor.
Fair enough, but how does recitative figure into that? Take a song like "Light My Candle" in Rent. Mimi's so overcome with emotion that she has no choice but to sing the line "Got a light?"
I guess, in my head, I always kind of assumed that people in a musical don't actually realize they're singing, which is why I've never seen any need to justify it.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#26
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:48pm
"I guess, in my head, I always kind of assumed that people in a musical don't actually realize they're singing, which is why I've never seen any need to justify it."
EXACTLY.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#27
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:49pm
His comment applies to your typical musical--dialogue, then song.
But as for sung-through musicals or the similar, I think the same idea pertains to when the music goes from conversational to emotive.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#28
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:51pmOh--and I agree that the character doesn't know they are singing, but that has nothing to do with what should justify a song.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#29
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:53pm
But as for sung-through musicals or the similar, I think the same idea pertains to when the music goes from conversational to emotive.
One would think it would be less of a problem in musicals that are recitative-heavy, such as Rent and Dreamgirls.
I'm realizing I'm in the minority here, but I've always accepted any musical at face-value. While I loved Chicago on film, I didn't need the conceit that it was all in Roxie's head. It seems most of America did.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#30
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:56pmI didn't bring up the "audiences don't like people singing" thing because I'm one of them. But I think it is playing out to be true. I'm for characters doing whatever they want. And I'd like to believe they "know" they're singing, but they're singing in a universe where that's one way people communicate.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#31
Posted: 1/22/06 at 2:58pm
I agree with you--I never think about it. Some characters dance to tell the story. Some speak in iambic pentameter. It's all the same to me as long as it's done well and is a great story!
And, at the risk of sounding like a snob, I don't think that most people on this planet are particularly bright or in touch with their emotions to grasp much of what we do.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#32
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:00pmOh--and I agree that the character doesn't know they are singing, but that has nothing to do with what should justify a song. But why? If the character isn't aware of it, why does it need to be justified? And how does that argument not completely invalidate all the great musicals from the so-called Golden Age - West Side Story, My Fair Lady, etc?
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#33
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:01pm
Kringas, what I mean to say is that the writers/director/performer has to earn the song. Poor or bad musicals will plop a song into a scene just because they feel like a song should be next. Well, you have to earn that. There should be a reason.
And, I dig Namo's idea that a musical is a universe where people know they are singing. I think one could see it either way.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#34
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:05pm
I think Namo's point is valid, too, but then the justification for singing is implicit, as that's how people communicate in that world.
And I see what you mean by "earning" the song, but there's a difference between the hoary operettas from the 1920s and 30s where songs where just dropped in, but when I go to see a musical in which the songs are there to further the plot, it's earned it's right to be musical with me right there. If it fails due to artistic merits that's one thing, but even a bad musical has still earned its right to be musical simply by being a musical.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#35
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:07pm
I didn't bring up the "audiences don't like people singing" thing because I'm one of them.
Namo, are you talking on film or on stage and film?
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#36
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:10pm
Well, it was definitely true in pre Showboat/Oklahoma! musicals. But, it has made a comeback with most Jukebox musicals.
And, I have seen original shows that didn't earn the song, and it often is about artistic failure. The writers didn't build the scene into the need for a song. Or, the song isn't about anything important to story or character development. It's just there because it's been 5 minutes since the last song.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#37
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:15pm
Well, it was definitely true in pre Showboat/Oklahoma! musicals. But, it has made a comeback with most Jukebox musicals.
I'll take your word for it. The only jukebox musical I've seen is Mamma Mia!.
I just I find the more the singing is "justified" the less I think of it as a musical. Frankly, I think the film version of Cabaret isn't much of a musical, because all of the songs are grounded in the reality of the club. Though they do comment on the plot, the reason the characters are breaking out into song is because all these songs are actual songs.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#38
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:18pmWell, justifying the songs in the Chicago sense worked great for that film, but won't work for others. Didn't Moulin Rouge prove that a good chunk of audience WILL stand for characters singing??
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#39
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:24pm
Didn't Moulin Rouge prove that a good chunk of audience WILL stand for characters singing??
That film always seems to be forgotten in the debate. My thought is that because the whole film is so stylized, the "justification" is less necessary. I can't really know for sure, though, because I just bought it because I buy people singing in musicals.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#40
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:28pmYeah. But like I said--we are all cultured to it. It's sad that Rent and The Producers are flops. And, in addition to the crap put out in the 80s, I can completely understand fear regarding upcoming movie musicals. Too many people screw them up. They just don't understand BOTH the artform they are adapting/working with and film making itself.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#41
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:32pmThat's one of the reasons I'm glad Condon is involved with Dreamgirls. I thought that for all the changes from stage to screen, Chicago was very faithful to the original version of the show (don't get me started on the revival, as I'm in the minority of people that didn't "get" that, either). With the exception of losing "My Own Best Friend," I really thought the movie was damn near perfect. I have hopes that Dreamgirls will follow suit, though I do worry (as Namo pointed out) that it's going to focus on strictly "song" songs. If we lose "Heavy" and "It's All Over" I'm not sure I'll be able to go on.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#42
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:34pmWell, then we are lucky that the most famous song from the show is NOT set on stage!!
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#43
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:37pm
I agree that's a reason for optimism, but one never knows what Hollywood will do.
And I'm way too invested in this to be objective. I love Dreamgirls more than any other musical, more than just about anything in the world, really. I wish I could live in that musical.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#44
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:41pm
If I were a film director, I wouldn't make changes to a musical because I thought they automatically wouldn't work on film. I would want to find the way to make that song or moment work on screen using the tools that film making allows you. I look at it the same as I do adapting Shakespeare. You find a way to make Shakespeare work on film. There are theories about when it is appropriate to do a close up and when one should do a wide shot to make the heightened speech or song work on film, etc.
And, I'm tempted to think that most of the time, the reason a musical isn't working on film--it's because the director isn't solving these problems with his editor and cinematographer.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#45
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:42pm
You mean you don't??
I sorta pictures Kringas Land as a fairy tale land with a little village for Wicked, Hedwig, Dreamgirls, etc. 
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/23/03
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#46
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:43pmWhen they read Namo's hypothesis for how And I'm Telling You might end up in the Dreamgirls movie, did anyone else think of the Hit The Road, Jack sequence in Ray and throw up in their mouth a little?
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#47
Posted: 1/22/06 at 3:49pm
You mean you don't??
Sadly, I have to return to reality once in a while. I swear, if there's an after life, I hope in mine I'm the swing for Effie, Deena and Lorell in an endless run of Dreamgirls and each night I play one of those roles.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#48
Posted: 1/22/06 at 4:04pmYou'll be going on a lot for Effie if Jennifer still has the role.
re: Now that the 'new movie musicals' fad has crashed and burned...#49
Posted: 1/22/06 at 4:09pm
That's cool. My "And I Am Telling You" is impeccable. Deena's really my favorite female role, though all three are really great, which is why I couldn't choose between the three in my dreams.
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