Obama's Thoughts on 9/11 Attackers

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 6:30pm

We all know how poor and helpless Osama bin Laden is.

"We must also engage, however, in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness. The essence of this tragedy, it seems to me, derives from a fundamental absence of empathy on the part of the attackers: an inability to imagine, or connect with, the humanity and suffering of others. Such a failure of empathy, such numbness to the pain of a child or the desperation of a parent, is not innate; nor, history tells us, is it unique to a particular culture, religion, or ethnicity. It may find expression in a particular brand of violence, and may be channeled by particular demagogues or fanatics. Most often, though, it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair."


Link

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 6:51pm

He would be referring to the actual people on those planes. I don't see anything wrong with his statement. It's well known that some people are more than willing to kill themselves in order to provide well for their family.

[South Fl Marc]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 6:51pm

"Most often, though, it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair." "

I think that describes some of the "red" states better.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 6:56pm

Grasping at straws again Goth.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:05pm

"We must also engage, however, in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness"

I have said this from the moment I could catch my breath on 9/11.

And a country that has been the ONLY one to detonate nuclear weapons should NOT be afraid of having that dialogue.

Frankly, Goth, this line of thinking is EXACTLY what seperates me from current 'conservative' ideology. It is all predicated upon a feeling of superiority and priority of position.

You are NOT the only ones on this planet - and when even an ATTEMPT at wrapping your head around someone else's thoughts is met with derision and contempt, then YOU are in the wrong. Period.

And that includes papa, whom I consider a real friend.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:12pm

We were the only country that detonated a nuclear bomb because we happen to be at war at the time. Using the bombs spared the US from invading Japan & costing untold thousands of US lives.

It also showed the destruction using nukes could cause & probably stopped them being used by the Soviet Union or anyone else for that matter in the future.

Understanding that these individuals cannot be reasoned with might help. Anyone willing to be a suicide bomber has hatred no amount of dialogue will change. Many of the 9/11 attackers were Saudi's .Blame the saudis for the princes living in unimaginable surroundings & no real hope for the little guy. This breeds anger & when they are taught from infancy to hate the US, talking somehow ain't gonna do it.

These "people " you wish to talk to would not hesitate to detonate a nuke bomb in the US if they could get their hands on one. I am sorry but this went beyond talking a long time ago.When Sadat was assasinated, I knew these guys would be trouble somewhere down the road.

Updated On: 7/14/08 at 07:12 PM

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:16pm

"Anyone willing to be a suicide bomber has hatred no amount of dialogue will change"

But it's that very hatred that is what's being asked about - and how, if at all, it can be dealt with.

Or, God forbid, there might be an actual REASON for it that isn't based in lunacy. I really don't see why THAT is such a fearful question to ask. Except that it might cause people to have to justify their OWN positions and actions, which many seem unwilling to even contemplate.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:24pm

Yes, lets attack the symptoms, but ignore the cause of the hate that drives these men and women to because weapons of mass destruction.

What exactly have we done to disprove the hate spewed in the Mid-East?

Until we can win the hearts and minds of those children who may eventually grow into adults willing to sacrifice their lives and future for some hate-filed bile spewed by "men of faith", we will be killing and killing, until there are no more bullets and bombs. Without the disenfranchised and impoverished, Radical Islam would not have as many willing soldiers strapping on bombs.

Force will not be the sole solution to this problem.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:31pm

"A blind and toothless world".

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:40pm

You can't argue with someone like goth. His head is so far up whatever ass it is that "informs" him.

To even act like the bombing of Japan was 100% the right and only option is the height of contentment with ignorance and self righteousness.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:46pm

But Jerby, it's that exact kind of dismissal that MAY be at the heart of the problem.

But I take your point - really, I do

[adamgreer]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:56pm

To even act like the bombing of Japan was 100% the right and only option is the height of contentment with ignorance and self righteousness.

Perhaps, but to act as though it was the absolute wrong thing to do is also ignorant and self righteous.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 7:59pm

Adam - I don't see where anyone has done that.
Updated On: 7/14/08 at 07:59 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:05pm

Exactly.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't deal in absolutes--I am all about nuances and shades of gray.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:08pm

Not to deviate, but I am torn about the use of the bomb against the Japanese.

The cost of a full scale invasion in lives lost would have been enormous, and I have no doubt that had the Germans or Japanese developed it first, they would have used it without hesitation.

I do wish that they had surrendered before the second bomb was dropped. My understanding is that there were only two bombs available at the time of

I can honestly say that had I been in Truman's shoes, I would have authorized the bombing. Estimates of American casualties for a land invasion of Japan was between 125-250,000 soldiers, and depending on the sources, over a million Japanese citizens. Japan has refused an unconditional surrender, and its resolve to fight had not been destroyed. Its citizens were being trained to fight door to door, with weapons made of bamboo. Something had to be done to break the will to fight. Unfortunately, it was the Atomic Bomb.

I do regret the consequences of the decision, but at the time, if I were Truman, I probably would have done the same thing.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:11pm

Dg and jrb_actor, I didn't mean to imply that someone did. Sorry if I was unclear.

As for the bomb (talk about a thread jack!!) I agree with youwantitwhen??? I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision, but ultimately, based on the evidence he had available to him, Truman made the right call.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:20pm

"You are NOT the only ones on this planet - and when even an ATTEMPT at wrapping your head around someone else's thoughts is met with derision and contempt, then YOU are in the wrong. Period."

DG, it would be nice if everyone could sit down and talk through their differences and be nice. That's what the UN was supposed to be about, but it failed miserably. That's not the way the world works. These people want to kill you and end your way of life. These people don't want a kumbayah moment, they want you dead. I am sorry you hate the US so much, but I think we've gotten in right more times than we've messed up.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:22pm

Adam - I wasn't saying you did - I just wanted us all to be on the same page.

As to 'the bomb' - my point is, if we have faced that kind of decision, and the heartache and life-or-death issues it creates, then we shouldn't be afraid of approaching a discussion when other people are making the same kinds of decisions. I really wasn't commenting on the appropriateness of Truman's call.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:30pm

I think you are projecting Goth, because nowhere did I see DG say he hated the US.

It is amazing that you cannot grasp that you can love something, and think it can do better. Standard GOP talking point, using fear to stifle any sort of debate. McCarthy would be proud.

Not to speak for DG, because he is far more articulate than I, but we need a two prong approach - not just force, and not just words, but a combination of both.

Force alone will not solve the problem alone.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:35pm

"These people want to kill you and end your way of life."

This seems to be the disconnect here. I don't think that that's an inherrent trait - I think you are led to that point for some REASON. I'm interested in the WHY of it all. I think THAT is at least part of the solution to moving past this.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:38pm

the one person who can bring together the democrats is not hillary or obama, it's goth.

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:40pm

Oh, papa, I KNOW you have more to say than THAT

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:40pm

Though to be fair, I believe that Jerby, DG and I all preferred Hillary to Obama (I think for DG, I would not swear).

Edit - Whoops - only Jerby and I were Clinton supporters! Updated On: 7/14/08 at 08:40 PM

[DG]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:50pm

Actually, no - I've never liked her - for years.

Ask PJ

Something I'm thinking about - to an extent, I live under the judgement that my reality isn't 'equal' because of the whole gay thing. Why aren't there subway cars being blown up by drag queens who have had enough?

I think there are obvious answers to take concerning an answer to that, but the bigger point to me is the use of the word 'why' in my thoughts.

The entire concept of trying to understand seems to have become anathma - and that leads to nothing, as far as I can tell.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:56pm

I think you are led to that point for some REASON.

But what about when what leads them to that point is FAITH not reason.

No amount of reasoning in the world can overcome a fanaticism borne of misguided faith.

We'd have to shake them out of their faith, and we could no more do that than we could shake Goth out of his.

Goth and the 9/11 attackers both worship death, Goth by his dreams of Armageddon and the attackers by their dreams of jihad.