Our shifting take on looting: Baghdad vs. New Orleans- Page 2

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:27pm

Which is insane because last I heard there is no way for the cops to communicate with each other, there is no place to PUT arrestees, and many people are armed.

I think there's a REASON that people like Bill O'Reilly freak out the way he is: THIS is what happens when poor people FINALLY have enough. They FINALLY crack. How can you tell people that it takes FEMA four or five days to get disaster relief going and it takes the President three days to respond at all? I mean, he hopped the first Air Force One much quicker to get involved with Terry Schiavo.

People just do not want to face the seething class resentment in this country, because it's too frightening for them to think about.

Updated On: 8/31/05 at 11:27 PM

[justme2]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:29pm

I would not even try to compare the tragedies. I only used my example to let you know I have been in a SIMILAR situation.

...and I am not arguing that these people aren't in hellish conditions. Heat and humidity and mosquitos and dead bodies and no food, water or hope.

So why, on top of dragging themselves and what's left of their families and belongings through these streets, would someone want to drag a plasma tv with them?

I'll tell you why:

My theory is that these looters are NOT the ones who are dying in the streets. These looters are opportunists. These looters are seen with electronic goods and nothing else. Not bread, diapers and medicines (which, if you saw in my earlier posts..I expected and would be doing myself, no doubt!).

These are the lawless looters that must be stopped. These are the ones making the city an even more dangerous (if that's possible) place to be.

That's all I, and many others here, am saying.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:33pm

We may both be right. But I think there is no underestimating what people with nothing will do in the most desperate of circumstances. I'm not saying it's rational, I am saying the situation they're in really makes rationality a rare commodity.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:40pm

I do not think that the current inventory of any store will reflect the losses that these business owners will face over the next months and years.
Updated On: 8/31/05 at 11:40 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:41pm

Oh and check this out. I found it at Nola.com, which has been invaluable reading over the past few days:

"Amid the turmoil Wednesday, thieves commandeered a forklift and used it to push up the storm shutters and break the glass of a pharmacy. The crowd stormed the store, carrying out so much ice, water and food that it dropped from their arms as they ran. The street was littered with packages of ramen noodles and other items.

"Looters also chased down a state police truck full of food. The New Orleans police chief ran off looters while city officials themselves were commandeering equipment from a looted Office Depot. During a state of emergency, authorities have broad powers to take private supplies and buildings for their use."

So, EXPLAIN that dichotomy to parched and hungry people! The italics are mine, by the way.

I think this brings us back nicely to Auggie's original question in this thread. Why is "plasma TV" being invoked here in multiple posts as the marker for stepping over the line? Meanwhile, Donald Rumsfeld shrugged off priceless artifacts from Mesopotamia that were stolen on the US's watch.

I maintain that this is what America looks like when the crap hits the fan. And it's going to be hitting it regularly as prices escalate, as the country goes broke, as we regret the huge amount of American farmland that has been turned into useless strip malls.

And it ain't gonna be pretty.

"New Orleans Cops Ordered to Stop Looters"

[Yawper]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:42pm

the other thing I've noticed in both the reporting and all the video footage being shown is that none of the civilians seem to be helping each other - official agencies seem to be doing all the work. One lady standing in front of her high and dry, but damaged, house bitching for the feds to come to her and a diabetic across town crabbing the same way while their neighbors are driving around in pickup trucks - none of those feel good stories about people helping each other

even in the waist deep areas - civies in mostly empty boats paddling past those walking - in shallower areas car and trucks nowhere near capacity leaving others behind even though normalized Baton Rouge is only 80 miles away -

and really - shipping all these people by bus to Houston - wouldn't it be better just to get them to a dry area with working utilities where water trucks and portajohns could be made available? that could be done within 100 miles of N.O. instead of going 350 miles to Houston
Updated On: 8/31/05 at 11:42 PM

[justme2]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:46pm

I think plasma tv is being used as a marker soley because, even in a stressed state of mind, it's not the kind of thing that's even useful in this situation. That's all. When I see the footage of these poor souls running with bread, shoes, food, medicine..my heart goes out to them and I think...what happens when there's nothing left for them to loot?

I've been reading the same sights as you (lol) and I agree with what you are saying, ESPECIALLLY the part about Bush hightailing it back to DC when Schiavo was dying/living, but when hundreds of thousands of poor people are drowning in a hurricane....he "thinks about ending his vacation early".

But that's another thread entirely....

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:49pm

I just think this is a MAJOR "there but for the grace of fate go we..." situations and it's really hard for me to imagine criticizing people in such dire straits because it's relatively easy to do in front of my plugged in and fully operable computer.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:52pm

Video footage shows only what the cameraperson chooses to shoot. I hardly think having seen a few video loops on Fox or CNN justifies the sweeping statement that "none of the civilians seem to be helping each other".

As for transporting people to Houston, I can't imagine that another facility of that size is available just a hundred miles north of New Orleans. Nor do I imagine that areas a hundred miles north have been left unscathed.

It actually seems prudent to move a large number of homeless away from the disaster area to less the burden consolidated in one area.

And although I'm not generally a fan of Texas, it's kinda nice that they offered, no?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/31/05 at 11:59pm

Absolutely. It's the right thing to do.

[Yawper]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 12:14am

"unscathed" isn't needed, just unflooded with working utilities - which Baton Rouge, just 80 miles away, is. A facility isn't needed either - the armed forces know how to pitch tents and erect portable shelters. Moving all the way to Houston subjects people to too long a trip, slows the evacuation and stabilization process, makes reuniting separated families more difficult, and takes these people too far away from familiar territory. It's such a waste of time and resources.

[justme2]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 12:33am

I am curious....I heard on CNN earlier tonight that they have heard "reports" that Cruise Ships are coming to the area to dock (where that's not destroyed???) and house people. Is it true?

I think it was very gracious and, of course, the right thing to do, for Texas to offer sanctuary. I honestly don't see the National Guard being able to pitch tents ofr anything anywhere remotely close to the affected area.

[Yawper]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 12:52am

"I honestly don't see the National Guard being able to pitch tents or anything anywhere remotely close to the affected area."

they certainly can - not that tents are the first thing needed
(water and latrine facilities are first needed, followed by food distribution, medical assessment, and shelter). More than anything else they do the military moves, shelters, and feeds people. other than possible building collapses from standing in water the damage threat is over. those piles of rubble aren't going anywhere so the only focus on them should be by the units searching for survivors. ditto the flooded areas. all civilians should be offered transport to a nearby collection area (if governor I would probably commandeer a few small municipal airports for this purpose, or some such open space). once the people are stabilized debris cleanup can commence. able-bodied volunteer labor from the camp would be strongly encouraged.

[justme2]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:01am

What I meant by that statement was that, from the news coverage I've been watching, that water isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So I question where they are going to pitch these tents. If they have to travel to a spot to find rooms to pitch the tents and set up a community, well...they are already on the way to Texas!

[Yawper]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:15am

both north and west of New Orleans are not flooded - the difference is a max two hour bus ride vs over five hours to Houston with a limited number of buses, which more than doubles evac time, to a location where they can't stay for very long anyway. not to mention that none of the disaster relief was headed for Houston, so now either Houston will have to drum something up on their own or aid will have to be diverted from the stricken areas.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:27am

When I heard about the looting, I was not surprised. What the **** difference does it make if these people take TVs or Baby Food? If it helps them to feel better let them do it. If it gives them the feeling of having some control over their ruined lives, LET THEM. No one is going to miss a flat screen TV or a case of Gerber's. The stores are beyond that. There is so much more to worry about. These people won't get to take all of the looted electronics with them and they know it. But if for 10 minutes it makes them feel that they were able to rise above their situation or forget the real trouble that lies ahead for them who are we to judge? Trying to stop them will only add to the violence and make the division of classes even wider when it should be the opposite right now.

I am so reminded of the film Three Kings where the capitalist pigs are forced to reach into their hearts to do the right thing and put the gold aside.

[justme2]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:47am

THIS is what happens when looters are allowed to "make themselves feel better" by stealing electronics, jewelry, and items other than the completely understandable looting of bread, water, food and medicines:

From Yahoo news
"Looting spiraled so out of control that Mayor Ray Nagin ordered virtually the entire police force to abandon search-and-rescue efforts and focus on the brazen packs of thieves who have turned increasingly hostile."

So go and tell the people drowning in their attics that they will now have to wait "a bit longer".

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:54am

You know, that was kind of my point. Isn't there something better the police could be doing? Of course there is. So let the looters be. Who really gives a crap about that stuff? Let them have it and get on to what is important.

[justme2]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 1:59am

I agree with you on that...there is more important activities to undertake. I don't think it's the store items they are worried about.

It's the fact that these "opportunist" looters ( I want to make it clear that the problem is NOT the "I need food for my family" looter) stole guns from WalMart and are now beginning to go into people's houses to loot. They are shooting at other citizens, not just the police, either.

It's not the items that anyone cares about here. It's the escalation of violence of the looters.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 9:50am

It's been 24 hours since I started this thread, and it's fascinating to me how for many in the media the looting has become the "A" story, and the plight of the people left behind the "B" or "C". Big shock, it certainly is a sexier, gun-related drama and more critically, does distract us from the bigger discussion and problem-- how are we as a society going to handle an unprecedented crisis. We live in an age when finding the distraction is key. Suddenly, an act of nature that's destroyed a coastline is REALLY about those nasty people who will do anything to steal. Shame on those lawless heathens down there! They should know better. As O'Reilly and others shout, "This won't be tolerated!" I just keep thinking ... isn't the anger oddly -- if typically -- misplaced? In 72 hours, we're focussed on demonizing the impoverished left in a fetid, dangerous swamp. God help us.

Updated On: 9/1/05 at 09:50 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 9:58am

"We live in an age when finding the distraction is key."

And when there is no distraction available because there is no electricity in a city under water and people who have nothing have little or no food or water, they steal guns and shoot at anything that in their (probably delerious from lack of food or water) minds represents "the system."

Every hour that there is further delay in relief, the rage boils stronger. I'm sorry, but I DO think this is what happens when the curtain falls and people under duress are told that they shouldn't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. The raw deal of their lives come into high relief, without the distractions that usually keep them from looking at it.

Poor people, the ones whose relatives largely make up the military (well, except the officers), know that a billion dollars a day has been spent in Iraq. And the poor people in New Orleans know that money to reinforce the levees was taken away.

1 + 1 = BOOM

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 10:13am

Well, the looters are getting increasingly bolder and more dangerous.
I read a report this morning that a man in a transportation vehicle for a retirement home (the kind where the majority of the inhabitants are sick) was forced out of the vehicle by carjackers, thereby losing supplies for the home as well as the vehicle itself.

To say that the looting is NOT a problem and should be ignored is a bit foolhardy but I will agree that it is most certainly NOT the primary issue needing to be addressed here.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 10:15am

"Everything will work out..." the President said.

It's fine, we're fine, everything's fine. "People LOVE what we're doing" the administration said as the wetlands were given to the developers for more places for the haves and the have-mores ("my base," the President joked) to live and recreate.

This is all giving me such a headache.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 10:21am

"Everything will work out..." the President said.

I heard this awful, vile, screaming voice yelling profanities at the TV while I was watching this and then realized that I was home alone.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/1/05 at 10:21am

"I'm concerned that so many looters are getting firearms and ammunitions. Once the mass evacuation is done...who will be left...those willing to shoot each other to death?"

The idea of "Escape From New Orleans" is not so far-fetched.

As for the idea of Houston being too far and inconvenient, that's just malarky. We're talking 30,000 people here. Does anyone honestly think porta-potties and tents for 30,000 people is s better solution than the Astrodome??? It has air-conditioning and restroom facilities. Houston has quite a bit of experience with hurricane and flood relief and is equipped to provide aid. I lived through a few hurricanes and floods there, myself. Since Houston built the new football and baseball stadiums, the Astrodome is empty most of the time and it is better suited for providing aid, making the people more comfortable, new transportation into downtown, and can offer better control than tents and porta-potties for approximately four months. For people who have been waiting days for electricity, food, working restrooms and dry shelter, I don't think a couple more hours on a bus will be a major hardship for them.

I haven't seen any mention of this yet, but has anyone heard about Tallahassee? Hotels are kicking out hurricane refugees for fans of the Miami-Florida State football game. It makes me nauseous.

Updated On: 9/1/05 at 10:21 AM