Roe vs. Wade Anniversary

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 1/19/04 at 11:28pm

I know the Roe vs. Wade Anniversary is coming up. I hate to bring up this issue on the board because it is very controversial but I also think dialogue is the only way to come to true understanding. I'm gonna stay out of this one... for a little while at least, and see what everyone thinks and I want supporting evidence that you can back up with sources no name calling and stating things as fact without giving sources.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/19/04 at 11:33pm

I think until men can get pregnant and truly understand the difficult decision of having to terminate a pregnancy, they have to shut their mouths and support women's reproductive freedom, as guaranteed by the US Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade decision.

Invasive abortion procedures are well on their way to becoming a thing of the past. No more Operation Rescue intimidating women, no more assassinations of physicians who perform abortions by "Christians" (how does THAT work, by the way?), no more opportunities for people to poke their noses in other people's business.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:07am

Bravo, Namo. Men have no right deciding what a woman can do to their bodies, unless the condition also affects men. And I don't mean "parenting."The religous argument can not stand up in court, even if Jane Roe herself in now an avowed "Christian" and regrets having been the pawn in that case.

If you have not see the movie CITIZEN RUTH it is a must see. So funny with great performances from Swoozie Kurtz, Mary Kaye Place and the astoundingly brave Laura Dern. It is about this really messed up woman who becomes pregnant and is basically held hostage by both the anti-choicers and then by the pro-choicers. A very dark twisted comedy, with a very strong message.

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:09am

I'll stay out of it completely then... Let the women of the board hash it out.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:16am

Smart words for such a young man. You learn quickly, Grasshopper.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:26am

I think this is a terrific topic for discussion, Son_of...

I'm old enough to remember how it was for women *before* January 22, 1973 when Justice Harry Blackmun wrote the Roe vs. Wade decision. I knew women, actually girls in their teens, who opted to risk their lives during scary, secretive trips to have pregnancies terminated by persons of unknown qualifications, rather that face the consequences and humiliation of an unintentional pregnancy. One mistake could change everything, forever. Listen, I like children as much as the next person, I have a couple of kids of my own...I adore them. My professional life centers around the preservation of life. But I believe, strongly, that it is essential for a woman have the right to determine whether an unplanned pregnancy is terminated, and to have it done safely, if that is her choice.

At the same time, I also believe that women have a responsibility to use this option prudently. I become offended when I see repeat abortions used as a form of birth control and I'm not comfortable with third trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk or profound problems are discovered in the fetus. Abortion is a woman's right, but it should never be taken lightly.

Namo laid it out pretty well in the preceding post: "I think until men can get pregnant and truly understand the difficult decision of having to terminate a pregnancy, they have to shut their mouths and support women's reproductive freedom, as guaranteed by the US Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade decision."

Thank you, Namo.

Updated On: 1/20/04 at 12:26 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:31am

Don't mention it! It's a politic I arrived at with deep thought and careful consideration. After being indoctrinated (and that truly is the only word for it) by 12 years of Catholic "education," my post is what I arrived at and it's an opinion I share with any man who feels he has a critical voice on this issue.

Thank you for your post, iflit, spoken like a true woman. And for that, j'adore vous.

Updated On: 1/20/04 at 12:31 AM

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:22pm

You know, I feel bad (although not 'badly') because we effectively stopped this discussion which is about an important subject. While it's true that I feel men have no right to suppress a woman's reproductive freedom, I'm re-evaluating my conviction that they have no right to voice an opinion. Really, a little narrow minded on my part (gasp). It occurred to me that the impact of the phrase "men should keep their mouths shut..." is different depending on who says it. Coming from a man (in this case, Namo), it is an opinion voiced strongly in support of women's rights (and for that I continue to thank him). But when a woman (in this case, me) says it, it almost comes across as intimidation. I believe in freedom of speech and think it's a little hypocritical of me if I discouraged anyone from voicing an opinion, regardless of gender. Son_of_a_Gunn...I know that you must have brought this up for a reason, and wish you'd post what you have to say. I may take issue, but I promise to stay off the soapbox.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:31pm

"I become offended when I see repeat abortions used as a form of birth control and I'm not comfortable with third trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk or profound problems are discovered in the fetus. Abortion is a woman's right, but it should never be taken lightly."

Iflit, I know pro-choice woman who was a former nurse, and she would tell me about having to perform third-trimester abortions and how sick to her stomach she would get. She is still pro-choice, but is adamant that there should also be a time limit on her decisions.

In an ideal world, sex education and pregnancy prevention courses should be mandatory in today's junior high cirriculum. What galls me is that so many of abortion's most vocal opponents are also very anti-condom and any other form of birth control.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 12:35pm

Yeah, but, in a culture in which men have most if not all of the power, there really isn't all that much precedent for women to intimidate men into silence. I actually think reproductive freedom isn't particularly discussable as a theoretical thing. It is SUCH a bottom line issue for me, that nobody but nobody has a right to tell somebody else what they can or can not do to or with their own bodies. That's the line in the sand for me. I see the connection to my freedoms as a gay man, recently, FINALLY upheld by the US Supreme Court. In 2003!

[meljuda]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 4:27pm

There are so many different circumstances when it comes to abortion that the whole issue is too confusing for me.
I believe that from conception there is a human with a soul, and that abortion is murder. However, I don't condem those who have abortions or those who perform them.

At what point does the government have the power to regulate abortion? I do not want girls to hurt themselves by trying to get rid of an unwanted baby. I don't want to tell a mother who may loose her life giving birth to a child that she can only choose to die. That is not my place, or the governments.

Except for the issue of "doing what you want with your body"(see note below) I somewhat agree with those of you who are pro-choice, as do many other pro-lifers.

I think that in educating Junior High students on sex, and protection, there is a very difficult challenge. Yes, they need to know how to protect themselves, because some of them will be having sex before they are old enough to make wise decisions. However, as an educator, you have to be careful not to encourage the behaviour among your students who are still very young. Another factor is that the best way for children to learn about sex and protection is from their parents, and the school doesn't need to take this away from the responsible parents who will address the issue with their children. However, there are those who will only be educated at school.

I hope you can appreciate my stance and confusion on the issue, and not argue with me on the issue, because I have many of the same concerns that you do. Just thought you would like to hear from a pro-choice Republican living in the Bible-belt of the US (that's the southwestern part of the mid-west if you have never heard the term).

***If you are pro-choice and arguing with someone who is pro-life, the issue of "doing what you want with your body" will have no weight, because pro-lifers don't think of abortion as affecting your body, but the body of the child that is aborted.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 4:30pm

I totally respect your feelings of confusion. But there is absolutely no documented evidence that teaching kids about birth control increases sexual behavior. In fact, it seems to actually delay the start of sexual activity compared to groups who receive no such education.

[ckeaton]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 4:33pm

I have to say that I agree with Namo.
Men should be more passive on this issue. There are serious bilogical and emotional issues that men just shouldn't try to understand.

For me, I've never understood the 60 year old men pelting plastic feti (i think I'm making up that word) at passing cars in clinic parking lots.

With that said, and to respond to the concern that the thread has been hijacked from the original intent:

I'm one of the social republicans that thinks that this is not an issue that should be legislated by the federal government. I'm somewhere in between pro-choice and pro-life right now. I support the ban on partial birth abortions, because that is just awful. I don't believe that abortion should be used as a contraceptive, so no drive through clinics for repeat offenders. I do believe that there are many cases where abortions should be considered (the rape, incest, and wellness argument) So where do I stand? Generally silent.

Updated On: 1/20/04 at 04:33 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 6:08pm

I'm a little uncomfortable with the notion of people terminating their pregnancies being considered "offenders." And yes, it would be nice if nobody ever needed ANY abortions, but the fact is, they do. And it's hard to draw "limits," even though controlling others is such a part of our psychology.

[ckeaton]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 6:24pm

One man's offender is another man's hero.
However, my intent is not to imply that an abortion is an offense. More that there are probably people who do/would take advantage of a medical "do over" multiple times. I would rather subsidize free birth control.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 6:47pm

You'd think that if the Catholic church (or other religious organizations) so oppose abortion they might wise up and be staunch advocates of birth control and contraception: "Abortion is murder - so avoid the possibility of unwanted pregnancy by wearing a condom and/or engage in alternative sexual congress."

They would win many converts to that logic.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/20/04 at 6:56pm

When the topic of birth control or premarital sex would come up, my mom, a good midwestern church-going Missouri Synod Lutheran that she is, always said, "Well, they shouldn't be fooling around in the first place." Period. End of discussion. And that was a perspective that was frequently echoed by those in authority during my 12 years of parochial schooling (you guessed it...Missouri Synod Lutheran). Things may have changed, but it was all so black and white, right or wrong, nothing inbetween back then.

[bwaybaby2]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 12:54am

I participated in this year's March for Life, so that alone should give you a good idea of where I stand on the issue of abortion. I am staunchly pro-life in all areas: I seek the end of abortion, the end of capital punishment, the end of euthanasia, and the end of war. People should be allowed to live from conception until natural death.

In the Declaration of Independence, our founding fathers wrote that we “are endowed by [our] Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." As life is a right and gift from God, humans cannot and should not interfere with it. By performing or having abortions, people deprive other unborn humans of the right to have a chance at life. Who knows? Maybe one of those aborted babies would have grown up to cure AIDS or cancer or contributed to finding a solution to another problem our world faces. In any case, those babies deserved and still do deserve the right to live, to learn, to laugh, and to play. In the words of Dr. Seuss, "a person's a person, no matter how small." No one, from those still in their mothers’ wombs to the elderly throughout the land, should be denied these rights.

One must also remember that adoption is an option in any situation. Recall that no child asks to be conceived, no matter what the circumstances are (violent or not). When God gives a mother and a father (wed or not) this gift of a child, it is that couple's responsibility to see that the child is born, unless the child does not survive to term naturally. Please note that I said "a mother and a father." As a man is a necessary figure in reproduction and conception, I believe he has a right to represent his views. Too often does the choice fall to women, but keep in mind that men also contributed to this beautiful creation. If one feels that he or she is not mature enough or at the right time in his/her life to bear and bring up a child, then he/she should abstain from sexual relations. It's as simple as that.

Finally, I leave you with this thought. It strikes me as incredibly odd that when a woman does not want to be pregnant, she and others around her can disregard the baby growing inside her. They simply refer to it as a "fetus" (I abhor this term), and they discard it through having an abortion. On the other hand, when a woman is pregnant and looks forward to the impending birth of her child, the term used is always "baby," not "fetus." Have you ever heard a woman say, "I'm expecting a fetus"? I think not. Also, please think of those women who cannot conceive or those women who have had miscarriages (the latter applies to my own mother). These women ache after such heartbreaking news and such loss. Instead of contemplating an abortion, a woman who does not plan to care for the child growing inside of her should not only give her child a chance at life but also give these other hopeful mothers a chance to open their hearts to a new human being.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 7:26am

So what you're saying is that you'd prefer that an unwanted child be abused and beaten senseless by a mother that got stuck with it because she didn't use protection.

Sorry. I think every child should be a WANTED child.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 11:29am

Bwayfetus2, you "abhor" the term "fetus?" It is a fetus. It's like abhoring the term "neonate." It's what it is.

You seem to be saying that a woman who gets pregnant as a result of rape should consider the fetus growing as a result of its presence in HER body to be "a gift from God?" Does she need a receipt to return the gift?

I have to say that I adore that you manage to quote both the Declaration of Independence AND Dr. Seuss in your paraphraseology. A sort of "1776" and "Seussical" analysis of social control.

That you refuse to see the difference between a collection of cells that absolutely could NOT survive outside of the body of a LIVING HUMAN BEING WITH CONSCIOUSNESS and the "elderly throughout the land" shows how unwilling you are to engage about the fact that you have no business working to prevent what an actual woman who has a mind of her own and absolute dominion over her own body does. No business. It's not your business. If you're so against abortion, don't have one.

One last thing. I am so sick of the sentimental clap trap that so called right to lifers (THERE'S an abhorant term!) always try to sell. "What if this unborn child would have grown up to cure AIDS?" OR what if this unborn fetus grew up to be a fascist genocidal maniac responsible for the brutal murders of hundreds of thousands of people? Fantasies of what terminated pregnancies prevent from happening can go in any possible direction, you know. Because they are JUST FANTASIES.

I'm also sick of the "sad women who would give ANYTHING to adopt one of these 'unborn babies'" line of discussion. AS IF they're just standing around in a line waiting for women to deliver and hand off newborns! It's just such specious reasoning.

I do love the fact that in your line that says that "people should abstain from sex" (do you see how far your desire for control over what other people do with their bodies actually GOES?!) you seem to think that pregnancy is punishment for sex. An unwanted child is punishment for engaging in sex that women should have no choice but to endure. However, a baby delivered is a "gift from God."

Updated On: 1/23/04 at 11:29 AM

[orion59]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 12:00pm

I personally don't like the idea of abortion. However, I am a man and therefore will never face taht decision or the feelings that go with it. Given that, I feel that I have no right to say what somone else should feel and what their decision should be.

It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where abortion wasn't necessary. No woman is ever raped, no woman is ever the victim of incest and everyone has easy access to sex education and birth control. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world. Therefore, the decision has to exist and the person making teh decision to have an abortion needs to feel they can do so without interference or judgement from others who are not in that position.

The argument for adoption is fine for women who are able to make taht decision and somehow deal with it the rest of their lives. Many people cannot do that. I can't even begin to imagine what it fefels like to give your child away and live with that the rest of your life.

As far as the argument that this child may have done something great to change the world, as Namo said, the argument goes both ways. In fact, I think an unwanted child, especially one born of rape or incest, is more likely to grow up with psychological problems that will pervent it from doing great things. That child would be a constant reminder to it's mother of a painful experience and would likely not receive the love and support it would need to grow up feeling confident and able to take on that cure for AIDS or cancer.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 1:43pm

BB2:

I become infuriated when someone uses her religious beliefs to curtail the right of other women to have control over their bodies. The narrow scope of your understanding of the big picture is disappointing, and your willingness to see all women forced to follow through with unwanted pregnancies because in your vision all pregnancies are a gift from god, is nothing short of frightening. Even more stupefying is your willingness to hand off a woman’s ultimate control over her body to men. We’ve worked so hard to gain parity. Good grief.

I have had babies and I have had a miscarriage. My close friend lost a three month old baby to SIDS. I can tell you that there is a world of difference between the impact of losing a real flesh and blood baby and miscarrying a fetus. I’m not diminishing the pain and disappointment that accompany the loss of a desired pregnancy that is not carried to term. But that grief is about the loss of the potential child that the fetus would become; the dashing of hopes and expectations of parenthood. The death of a child is in an entirely different league.

It is your right to feel abortion is wrong. It is not your right to use your religious beliefs take away my right to have one. In a perfect world, all sex would be safe, all pregnancies would be planned, and all children would be loved, wanted and cared for. This is not a perfect world.

[WindyCityActor]

Posted: 1/23/04 at 3:53pm

It's a decision between a woman, her doctor, and, if she desires it, her God.

Everyone else, stay out!