Serious Discussion of the Day: Health Care

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 12:04pm

This morning, the front page of the NYTimes had an article that made me a bit sick to my stomach regarding a cancer treatment that's astronomically priced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/15/business/15drug.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

There's an aspect of social Darwinism with healthcare that's rather troublesome to me.

Should for-profit healthcare be taken to this kind of extreme?

[Auggie27]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 12:17pm

I like the admittedly rather too simplistic idea espoused of late, that it be run like the car insurence business. You can't drive without it, period, so everybody has some, even people without health insurance; so the rates are competitive. If everyone had to have health insurance to drive...

[AbbaRabbit]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 12:22pm

i read another article a while ago stating that reasearch for childhood cancer doesn't have a big enough profit to be consitered a top priority.. nice huh?

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 12:40pm

NO! That is absolutly ridiculous.

Personally I think that health care should be socialized, but until it is Health Insurance agencies and pharmaceutical companies have got to stop the price gouging.

I'd never heard the car/health insurance analogy Auggie. It really struck home for me since I do not have health insurance, but I do have insurance on a car I do not drive that lives many a state away from me.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 1:02pm

well, there was also an article about how they are allowing one of the newer AIDS drugs to go "generic" for sale in India and Africa.
While that's all well and good and I know that Africa is devastated by this disease, it pisses me off what AIDS patients in American have to pay or co-pay.......

and there was an article about how much money the elderly are costing America....you know, the elderly who kept America free by fighting in WW2, the elderly who were our teachers and mentors.

This countrys idea way of healthcare is disgusting.......

Updated On: 2/15/06 at 01:02 PM

[mominator]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 1:40pm

Not to mention "orphan diseases". Ones that are quite rare, so no profit for the drug companies. It is a very sad state of affairs when the almighty dollar is put before a person's life.

Updated On: 2/15/06 at 01:40 PM

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:00pm

We're never going to get anywhere on this issue with a political party wielding power which believes social programs/socialism too close to that great evil, Communism.
Why make things available for ALL when you can privatize it and help the rich get richer?

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:09pm

*cracks knuckles*

I just made a presentation pertaining to this. It was really about our long-term budget outlook, but you can't talk budget without talking entitlement programs.

As things stand, our entitlement programs and our revenues just cannot be sustained in the long term unless we want our debt to be over 100% of our GDP, an option that will probably lead to recession, hyperinflation, and other fun economic disasters.

Even if we got rid of the Bush tax cuts, we'd have big giant issues down the line. Social Security costs are indeed going to rise when the Baby Boomers start cashing in, but they'll rise in a rather controlled way, and then level off. Social Security isn't the big problem. (Though the huge fight the administration had with Congress about it might convince you otherwise.)

No, the big problems are the medical programs, especially Medicare, because it cares for a larger demographic at the sickest time of its life. Our health care program has to be changed tremendously, and it has to happen pretty soon. Socialized health care would actually be a money saver in this case because preventive health care...well, prevents a whole lot of super-expensive ER visits later. Pressure needs to be put on big pharma and other medical companies to promote low-cost treatments rather than just coming up with ever-more-expensive drugs and machines and discouraging research into alternatives.

The magnitude of the problem as it currently stands really can't be overstated by much. We can raise taxes to unprecedented levels, withdraw completely from Iraq, and lower discretionary spending by billions, and we still wouldn't have nearly enough money to cover all forthcoming costs. At some point there will be reform.

Updated On: 2/15/06 at 02:09 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:17pm

There is no country where socialized medicine works. And with the population of the U.S. and thousands of Mexicans slipping across the border each day, we would be paying 75% in taxes and the country would be bankrupt in a New York minute.

Private healthcare brings us better healthcare. Competition from for-profit companies means that we have the best product we can get. Furthermore, these for-profit companies take on some of the research and development costs that are astronomically high. If we didn't have that, the government couldn't afford the drugs that are on the market now.

[mominator]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:18pm

Goth some free advice don't get real sick.

[beacon1]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:22pm

I'm really enjoying this discussion. I have parents who are older and have increasing health problems. Making sure they can have their needs met is becoming an issue for me and my siblings.

And, I have a friend who is getting married and moving to England at the end of March. She suffers from lupus and is concerned about how her healthcare will be effected.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:26pm

Private healthcare brings us better healthcare.

Um...horse crap. Unless by "us " you mean "people with lots of money". And actually, immigration is all that's keeping our population from growing ever older like those of other developed nations. Older populations have greater health costs.

As it stands, Goth, someone who doesn't have insurance can't afford to go to the dentist or doctor for regular checkups, and therefore has to rely on the ER for health care. What would you rather pay for with your tax dollars- a few regular checkups, or treatment for metastatic cancer?

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:27pm

There is no country where socialized medicine works.


ah Goth, the ole open mouth and insert foot. Please state your credible sources that say this, that are verifiable.

Often you make these big generalizations, and never back them up. I have several friends in Canada who have no complaints about their system.

All must have access to the same healthcare. To be born in America today and know that some will get the medical care they need to survive and some will not is just plain disgusting.....

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:29pm

"As it stands, Goth, someone who doesn't have insurance can't afford to go to the dentist or doctor for regular checkups, and therefore has to rely on the ER for health care."

Socialized medicine doesn't mean they will get regular checkups. One of the big complaints in England is that they are put on a waiting list which can be as long as 6 months to a year or more.

Besides, if we let government run healthcare, it will be run just like the Post Office and Department of Motor Vehicles. Is that what you want?

Additionally, think of how easily the government will be able to get at your private medical information.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:30pm

Canada's system does have problems once you need something more specialized than routine care. But who's to say we need to use Canada's system, or that of any other country? There are several laboratories of socialized medicine systems going on right now; we can learn from each of them.

Fact is, America isn't cut out to be a welfare state on the level of European countries- we're not going to raise our taxes to 40% and have complete care for everyone. But that doesn't mean we can't have a socialized system of any kind, ever, no matter what. That's what creative policy-making is for.


Besides, if we let government run healthcare, it will be run just like the Post Office and Department of Motor Vehicles. Is that what you want?

Have you ever read The Phantom Tollbooth? You've been marooned on the island of conclusions for a while, man.
Updated On: 2/15/06 at 02:30 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:31pm

"But that doesn't mean we can't have a socialized system of any kind, ever, no matter what."

We have it: Medicaid and Medicare

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:33pm

And it's failing because of how it's targeted and run, Goth. Did you read my first post at all?

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:42pm

"And it's failing because of how it's targeted and run, Goth. Did you read my first post at all?"

That's the point. Government can't be counted on to run programs like this. Some type of competition has to be involved, which is the point of for-profit healthcare.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 2:57pm

Oh, god. Medicare's not failing because it's socialized, it's failing because it covers the sickest portion of the population. I mean, really, what private health insurer could survive insuring only people 65 and older?

And puh-lease don't tell me you also blame the evil nasty government for rising health care costs. Because that's all corporate, man. Not even torts contribute much to that problem.

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 3:10pm

Actually, liability is a big part of what makes health care so expensive. It goes like this: Hospital has to pay more for insurance to keep its butt covered in case anyone wants to sue. To pay for the ever-increasing cost of liability insurance, it cuts staff. When it cuts staff, its incidence rates go up. Lawsuits increase. It can't make up the cost. It cuts staff. A vicious, vicious cycle... this from a nurse who has worked in such an establishment where staff cuts were an ever-present fact of life. Thank goodness he's switched hospitals, and now works at one where they figured out that (surprise!) retaining staff is cheaper than constantly training new staff.

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 3:15pm

Oh, and another two cents... I really wouldn't mind the cost of healthcare if I could find insurance. 18-24 is the age that's quickly rising towards being the largest uninsured population. If you go to college, you quickly drop off your parents' healthcare coverage and can't afford it on your own. If you go straight into the workforce, you most likely will not start out in a job that offeres any kind of significant insurance. It's a lose-lose situation. They have minimum-coverage car insurance popping up all over the place... why not minimum-coverage health insurance? Cover a small portion of doctor visits - make them simply pricey instead of unaffordable - and cover me if I get run over by a giant truck, that's all I want. But don't make it $110/month - the cheapest insurance that I can find.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 3:15pm

CostumeMistress, there's no denying that liability costs, but it definitely doesn't explain all (or even most) of the rise in health care costs we've had lately. New technology and drugs are the biggies there.

[staticradar]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 3:28pm

I actually work for a Health insurance agency ,which will remain nameless at this time...and find that what we are doing to be kinda interesting, although quite pricey. They try out the plans on us as gunea pigs, being the employees...we're going towards more consumer managed plans, like High Deductible Health Plans, which if you are sickly or have a lot of costs this could work well...our plans say had a $2000 for an individual $4000 for a family in deductibles...lets take the family one for instance. Say you have a son with cancer and those things get pretty pricey, the first $4000 you have to pay out of pocket or set up a Health Saving Account which you could essentially put money out of your paycheck aside for these procedures and pay for it with that...then once that $4000 is met the whole family has coverage the rest of the year at 100% including RX, which is nice if it's something you'll utilize...now for someone like me who gets sick like 3 times a year and maybe has a routine exam I'm not likely to use that $2000 that I would take and would just be essentially paying everything out of pocket all year...so these plans don't meet my needs but for large families with high health care costs it could save them a bundle...

these types of plans are the wave of the future and expect to be seeing a ton more like them, they are already popping up a ton of placese, our company was one of the first to introduce them to the consumers...

Also with these plans they tend to be a bit less of a premium then your average HMO or PPO plans...so it usually works out well...but then again you have ppl like me who traditional PPO plans are better for...but those are gonna be rarer i have a feeling as this new wave of consumer managed care catches on...

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 5:44pm

How would health insurance accounts account for the rising costs in drugs though? Would they appreciate with inflation?

[staticradar]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 7:02pm

right now the RX plan they have for us (not taking the High Deductible Health plan i explained above) is basically an allowance program...dependent on what the drug does (not by cost...so in this case generics and brand are put in the same catagory) they are placed in Catagory's A, B, C, D... A having the highest allowance ammounts and D having the lowest...for example my plan is

A- $40
B- $30
C- $20
D- $5

so say if your drug is level B and it's only $20 you don't have to pay anything..but say it's level A and it's $200 you have to pay the difference...ours has a cap at $75 per drug up to i think it's $1500 out of pocket for the plan year...so yeah for my allegery medicine i usually end up paying $40-$75 every few months where as with last years plan (standard copay) i was paying like $10 or $20...so yeah I'm not too happy with this plan...but I guess if you take a lot of medicine it works out because of the cap, but if, again, you're like me, you don't go anywhere near the cap and end up out a lot of money during the year just on RX alone...i think i've spent almost $400 so far this year when last year it was probably only a little over $100...so yeah that's how the health insurance is accounting for the higher drug prices, making you pay for it!

With these plans they expect you shop arround and find the best pharmacy that gives you the best deal for the drug and switch to generic if possible, but when you're sick you really don't have time to "shop around" and end up paying more than you probably should...

I hope I'm explaining these wells...and these are just what my insurance companies are introducing to the public and they are widely embraced by companies looking to offer our insurance to their employees because the premiums are cheaper than other plans offered...

We are seen as "on the cutting edge of health care" according to internal memos and such so from what i gather this is the direction other Health Insurance agencies are going to in the very near future...

I wouldn't be surprised if next year a lot of people on here are offered HDHP for their insurance next year...