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#1

The Debate

I've been glued to the debate. Anyone else? Sadly, the candidates who impress me the most, are unelectable. Carol Moseley Braun. What an intelligent, well spoken and accomplished person. But she's unelectable because she brings nothing to the table. Kucinich. He's the only one really going out on a limb and speaking the truth as he sees it. But he's a little too much of a loose cannon; Perot-ish without the megabucks to keep him afloat. And John Edwards, who has impressed me the most tonight. I think he needs a few more years of public service to make him electable. But he's very coherent, very bright and very dynamic.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
#2

re: The Debate

Heard parts of it & it looks like the Rev Al landed a haymaker at Dean & Dean was flumoxed like a deer in the headlights. Personally, the good rev lecturing people re racism is beyond funny. Having said that, Dean looks like he might have a glass jaw. He has a temper & if an unelectable candidate can get to him , what will he do in November ?
Poster Emeritus
#3

re: re: The Debate

Many of the candidates had rough moments.

Lieberman could be saying all the right things (he's not), but if he were, I'd still have a problem with him. The guy whines. And that soap-box grandstand nonsense he pulled asking the other candidates to join him in signing a letter they'd never read was just plain embarassing. And I know it's not his fault that he looks like Alfred E. Newman's grandfather, but it makes it even more difficult for me to take him seriously.

Gephardt uses more empty words and platitudes before he get to the point, that by the time he's gotten there, I've lost interest. And at the risk of sounding mean, he's got a one-too-many- botox-injections look going that I find distracting.

Dean still hasn't won me over. I think he has some good ideas and that his heart is in the right place, but he doesn't show up very well in a debate setting. I'm thinking that that's a pretty important skill for someone who wants to be president.

Ah, now....the good Rev. Al. He was a man on a mission. He managed to make both himself AND Dean look foolish. Plus I find it tremendously irritating to listen to him rant about the need for educaiton when he is running for the country's highest office sporting a personal resume that reads "attended Brooklyn College, 1973-75" while also working as a roadie for James "I Feel Good" Brown during the same time period. He's right, of course, race IS still a huge issue, but both Carol Moseley Braun and John Edwards addressed the problems much more comprehensively and coherently. Sharpton, in small doses, often manages to amuse me. Last night he was just annoying.

Kerry, is the only other candidate in the debate who I didn't discuss in my initial post. I'm not sure what to make of him. He stikes me as a guy who was chock full of sound bytes and was just waiting for opportunities to land them.

I dunno. I want to feel, just once more, like I felt back in '68 when I was Clean for Gene. I believed. Will I vote for the Democratic candidate this year, whomever it may be? Yeah, probably....under what my husband refers to as the "Anybody But Bush" protocol. But I'm not all that happy right now with my choices.


Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
#4

re: re: re: The Debate

Did you hear former NYC Mayor Ed Koch has endorsed Bush? He was very harsh regarding Dean & said none of the 9 candidates could be trusted with the security of the nation. Oh boy , is he in the doghouse ? He has got guts, you gotta give him that
Poster Emeritus
#5

re: re: re: re: The Debate

I don't mind seeing Dean lit up like a deer in headlights. His eyes are the prettiest blue.

One thing people don't talk about is how overwhelmingly white Vermont is.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#6

re: re: re: re: re: The Debate

I wondered that myself Namo---hard to hire people of color if people of color aren't living there.

I would vote for Braun in a heartbeat. It's too bad this country is too ignorant to vote for a woman or a person of color.
johnraymondbarker.com
#7

re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

another thing that people don't talk aboput is that the entire population of vermont is 608,827. that's it. so when the good governor starts talking about what they did and what worked in vermont, someone really ought to point out to him that he's audtioning to go from playing fagin in the little red schoolhouse production of "oliver" to taking over for hugh in bfo. it's really that small. counfounding, ain't it?

more people than that voted for the *losing* candidate in the nyc mayoral race in 2001.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective

Updated On: 1/12/04 at 11:03 PM

#8

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

I've resisted posting, because I feel so increasingly negative about the whole group. Does anyone else come away from each debate with a sense that everyone has been ... diminished? Nancy Giles did an editorial on CBS Sunday morning that said as much, and I sadly agree. This a.m., seeing the Dean sound byte di giorno, about how he must "fight back" and won't be "the pin cushion" anymore only added to my sense that each of them is shrinking, daily, with the possible exception of Braun and Edwards, alas lightweights, both, when considered against an Teflon incumbent. The rest seem ever more tainted by the snippy infighting, and as a result, lack stature. I'm still Pollyanna enough to want presidential hopefuls to look both human and yet somehow ... nobler, bigger than life.

Like Ifitfloats, I've tried to will myself to warm to Dean, but find myself chilled by his bellicosity and arrogance. It startles me, but Bush has people who love him. My question is: can enough of us ever truly embrace Dean as anything but Anyone But Bush? Sometimes I can'thelp but respond to obvious barometers. If a marginalized media celebrity like Al Sharpton can skewer you twice on national TV, leaving you red-faced, bug-eyed and pissy, you're not in a good position to take on -- and be taken on by -- the Karl Rove machinery. Why aren't we shaking in our boots that Team Rove is literally chomping at the bit for Dean to be the candidate? Every time I read a smug Saffire or David Brooks editorial in the Times about "bring on the Dean vs. Bush show," I cringe. We're terminally naive to ignore their delight in Dean's ascendency.

The only excitement to come out of Iowa would be for anyone to push Dean aside for a while, and start a bracing, new dynamic among the players. I who usually enjoys the good fight during primary season. But even if it's biz as usual, the everyone vs. Dean syndrome as become a petty, sniggling, "small" discourse that in no way offers this country the hopeful alternative to the current regime.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 1/13/04 at 08:31 AM

#10

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

I have to say, when Dean tries to do the warm, friendly smile, it reminds me for all the world of Madonna sitting on that bale of hay on her last tour, strumming her guitar and smiling at the audience. But it looked more like a baby with gas than an actual smile.

I read the Dean cover story in Time at the denist's office (crown buildup: 1500 dollars; listening to dentist's stomach growl in my ear: priceless) yesterday and it included a frank analysis by Dean of his own style. He compared his wife's M.O. in their medical practice as methodically eliminating every possibility when diagnosing a patient with his own M.O. going on gut instinct based on knowledge he had in his own memory of treating these patients.

Anyway, I'm not paraphrasing it very well, but it was basically that everybody has different styles. Some are warm and fuzzy... or just fuzzy (W.!), and some keep a layer of distance from their warmth. It's kind of like a big Myers-Briggs Personality Indicator thing.

God, this is the least articulate I have ever been. "Am I making any sense?" check please.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#11

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

I read the Time piece, too. Namo further nails my escalating ambivalence: I could vote for Dean without loving him, and certainly have voted for many Dems who didn't bring tears to my eyes. Dean doesn't owe me or anyone else warmth. (I have a friend who tastelessly compared his grinning to Christopher Reeve in a wheelchair. It's a tacky remark, but I get what he meant. His attempts to show us his delight doesn't reveal much.) But the process of winning our votes hasn't made his profile more compelling to me.

Selfishly and cynically, though it's a given that HD will have my support, should he be the nominee .. at this point I'd like my vote to feel like a vote that translates into more than Anyone But Bush.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
#12

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

The debate made me take notice of John Edwards for the first time. Based on his performance the other night, I've moved researching more about him high on my to-do list. I haven't checked him out enough to feel comfortable giving him my 'endorsement', but I am definitely moving in that direction. Initially I had posted that he is too young and inexperienced. as it turns out, he is older than he appears (50...damn he looks good) and it occurred to me that even though he has only been in Congress for one term, our current president was only a one term governor. Not to mention that Edwards is extremely bright and has 20 years of experience in law (as opposed to, say, owning a baseball team....)

I want to see more of Carol Mosely Braun in the future, too.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
#14

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

Dean's bluntness drew me to him, and has until late kept me there. I only wish bluntness alone was enough. I haven't personally seen enough another other qualities added to the necessary mix to make him a viable THREAT to W. As much as I loathe the Iraq debacle, I don't think revisiting the errors associated with its creation will adequately define a platform between now and November. (Look how quickly the public buys the number of war dead, and sped blissfully through the holidays seemingly unmoved by them. How many Christmas ads even gave a NOD to the war? The way we did in 2001, after 9/11? This country doesn't feel it's suffering, a sad and scary thought, but another thread.) I read the Time piece, I don't have a strong enough handle on his other plans.

Even the die-hard Dean supporters -- I thought I'd become one by now, due to that bluntness -- must be concerned about his win-ability. Isn't the big picture goal to de-throne Bush, and see Rumsfeld and Cheney and Wolfowitz et al clean out their desks? That's how I feel. I am frightened by the direction the entire Bush team has taken us -- and how they've captured so many hearts and minds in THIS country -- so I want a winner, and a new team surrounding that winner. Pragmatically, we need someone who can capture the electoral college. Is it Dean? I doubt it, increasingly.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 1/13/04 at 04:10 PM

#15

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

I think that now isn't even a fair time to assess whether any of these candidates can beat Bush. My reasons are that right now, the focus is on who can win the nomination. Once, we have the actual candidate, the focus will shift greatly. Dean (or Clark) himself can focus on his plans as President and fighting Bush for the job, instead of fighting Bush AND all of these other Democrats. Right now, Democratic energies are being split--later this can be focused in supporting one candidate. Add in who gets chosen as VP candidate, and we can begin to see how he really will fare against Bush.

I think Dean will whoop Bush's butt in debates. I think people do want change in this country, and Dean is winning me over with his assertion that he is unlike Bush and the other Democratic hopefuls in his desire to fight the system/aka DC, not being from the system.

I'm certainly no political expert, but these are the thoughts running through my head. I think he has a very strong "Clinton" feel to him that will lead to his kicking Bush all the way back to Crawford.

At least I sure as heck hope so!
johnraymondbarker.com
#16

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

I wish I could agree with you that now isn't the time, Jrb. I respect your ideas, but still think this is EXACTLY the time to contemplate that question. I think we must always be aware of the brilliance of the incumbent's re-election strategists. This man is surrounded by extraordinary handlers. And deep pocketed supporter. Just wait till we get the Rove "Morning In Ameria." Talk about a Spiebergian vision.

As for the debates, I think anyone but Sharpton could whup Bush. Bush's legion of fans don't expect him to be articulate or even to talk much. Look at his pitiful press conferences (all 6 of 'em, or whatever the number is). And do you remember the Gore-Bush debates? I'll never forget them. Every thinking person in the country knew Gore masterfully whupped W then. But the polls? Split, some giving Bush the edge. People who buy his aw shucks, anti-intellectual performance CHEER when he's brief and shallow and devoid of details/facts.

Bush's triumphant strategy -- startlingly enough -- is to treat thoughtful discourse as the sport of pretentious people, and he's touted for that stance.

Just saw Dukakis on CNN, and he was 3rd in Iowa and still got the nomination. It ain't over.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 1/13/04 at 04:28 PM

#17

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the debate

although i am a full bore republican and staunch capitalist imperialist war mongering barbarian, i'd like to wade into this democratic debate because i'm bored waiting for the real fun to start.

dean won't win. dean won't even come close to winning. a friend of mine who's been a volunteer for every democratic cause in the last 10 years wrote me with a list of comparisons between dean and mcgovern. it's startling. but take it from a republican who's honest (i can hear you laughing already), dean won't win.

too democrats right now are suffering from a problem born of partisanship, in that they surround themselves with like minded people to the point that they confuse their friends and colleagues attitudes with that of the entire country. i see it myself among people with whom i interact through work: the assumption that you hate bush as much as they do. it's like tunnel-vision. they refuse to listen to anything but those views that parrot back to them the ideas that they started out with. it's to the point where people are developing bizarre conspiracy theories to explain away anything that might even hint at positive news if it involves the president or the administration. sure, she may have been joking, but how many people out there (and i exclude the folks here, you all seem relatively well adjusted) completely accept it as gospel when madeline albright suggested that bush has osama already in custody and will produce him in september? parts of this country are like the third world with this stuff. i mean seriously, it's like reading an arab language daily and finding out that the jews are using mind control rays to make arab men have sex with animals (it was on the arabnews.com website a few months ago, but the link is gone).

and let's bring up the topic of debates. does anyone here remember the debates between bush and gore? have you all forgotten how he managed to hold his own in those to the shock and awe of everyone? i mean, i half think that he cultivates this image of stupidity so that people won't expect too much of him. the man knocked off ann richards in texas. that was no mean feat. he's a gamer when it comes to the campaign. remember how he managed to charm nancy pelosi's daughter into making "travels with george" substantially less vicious than everyone expected? people continually underestimate him. if al sharpton can make ya look dumb in a nationally televised debate to the point that carole mosely braun has to step in and save you, ya'll better start thinking long and hard about whether this whole presidential race is a good idea.

i would advise you who are in the dean camp to get ready to be really upset because you're going to see ad after ad of dean screaming something incredibly insensitive, innappropriate and/or just downright stupid. he's done it, over and over and over again and that's undeniable. i mean plain talk is one thing, but howie's had his foot in his mouth so often he's got toejam between his teeth. the gop money machine will grind him up and spit him out.

you know i bet there's a few people who'd read this and say, "see, they're scared of dean, that's why they're trying so hard to make us abaondon him!" when was the last time the republican party was witty enough to try reverse psychology? please. keep acting as if gw's a trained monkey that's dumber than dirt, and nominate howlin' howie and you'll get four more years to proclaim the the descent of the stratosphere. and i will remember to thank you after the election.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective

Updated On: 1/13/04 at 05:08 PM

#19

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the

i can't imagine why. from what i've read, there are plenty of people in here who'd like to taste gov. dean's toe jam. in fact i bet if i took a survey i could find some volunteers who'd be willing to keep his feet in their mouths so as to prevent him from ramming them into his own mouth. apology indeed!
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#21

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: the

"if al sharpton can make ya look dumb in a nationally televised debate to the point that carole mosely braun has to step in and save you, ya'll better start thinking long and hard about whether this whole presidential race is a good idea."

I said this one way (above), overusing a purple string of adjectives as is my wont at this board ... but Papa, you in your sensible Republican Pat Nixon cloth coat said it more succinctly than I could in my beaver stole. Amen.

The latest from CNN, and Dean's bug-eye hothead, Trippi: looks like Jimmy Carter may endorse Howard on Sunday from the backwoods of Plains. Those who think he stole the Nobel Peace Prize (Papa, sound off) are no doubt waiting for this non-event gleefully.

It's all depressing me, but then, I get S.A.D.D. this time of the year.


"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 1/13/04 at 06:06 PM

#22

Braun to drop out, endorse Dean

DES MOINES, Iowa (CNN) -- Former Sen. Carol Moseley Braun -- trailing badly in the polls -- will drop out of the Democratic race for president and will endorse front-runner Howard Dean, Democratic sources told CNN late Wednesday.

The sources said Braun and Dean will hold an event Thursday in Carroll, Iowa, where she will throw her support behind the former Vermont governor.

"It's true. Carol felt like she had done what she needed to do," a Democratic source said. "She did herself a lot of good in this race.

"She ran a good race and now she felt like it was time to hand it over to someone who can win. Those are the feelings that were expressed to me this evening."

Moseley Braun was elected to the Senate in 1992 but was defeated in a bid for a second term in 1998. She is the only African-American woman to have served in the Senate. After her Senate defeat, she served as U.S. ambassador to New Zealand.

Her candidacy in the crowded Democratic field never caught fire.


johnraymondbarker.com
#23

re: Braun to drop out, endorse Dean

Sigh.

I hope she surfaces in a cabinet post. Assuming, with a leap of faith, that her party will be in a postition to hand out cabinet posts.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
#24

re: re: Braun to drop out, endorse Dean

Carol M. B. stands to benefit. She has emerged unscathed, having consistently taken the high road. I personally wish she'd withhold her Dean support, but that's my sustained ambivalence again.

Anyone else read Maureen Dowd this a.m.? My fellow Dems, you may want to skewer me here, but I think her glib take on the Doctors Dean has real teeth. It's not simply about Judy's right to have her own career; she seems almost aggressively UNinterested in her husband's. In post-feminist America, it's uplifting that this woman need not be defined by her husband's aspirations. But can she actively distance herself from his goals, at a time when -- call me old-fashioned -- the guy needs her to help us access him? This is politics, folks. If he were single, actually, it would be easier to spin. It's not so much about gender or equality in marriage; as Maureen points out, the woman's avoidance of Iowa, strategically, makes her look uninvolved, and both of them look like chilly people.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 1/15/04 at 11:20 AM

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