US kills more civilians (or Why touchme is a pacifist)
US kills more civilians (or Why touchme is a pacifist)
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
US kills more civilians (or Why touchme is a pacifist)#0
Posted: 11/21/05 at 10:53am
U.S. forces mistakenly fired on a civilian vehicle outside an American base in a city north of Baghdad on Monday, killing three people, including a child, the military said. "It was one of these regrettable, tragic incidents," said Maj. Steve Warren, a U.S. spokesman.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq;_ylt=AjbzI58UHG8MmKhmWfcoO1.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
I think "I'm sorry. It won't happen again." would suffice. Instead, we get, "Whoops! Well, that's part of the game." War makes me profoundly angry.
re: US kills more civilians#1
Posted: 11/21/05 at 12:02pm
touchme, while I am totally against this war, I am wondering if you have ever been in a combat situation? One must have all the facts before one passes judgement. (and one should also post other revelent facts about the story if you comment on it)
Were I in a situation, with a vehicle I was suspicious of, who say would not stop, paid no attention to warnings, and I felt my life, or the life of my men were in danger, I'd do the same thing.
Next time post the part of the article you left out......which is
"In the shooting of the three civilians, a U.S. soldier thought the vehicle was moving erratically outside the base in Baqouba and fired warning shots, said Maj. Steven Warren, a U.S. spokesman."
trust me, in a combat situation, you will do what you need to if you feel your life is in danger.
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
re: US kills more civilians#2
Posted: 11/21/05 at 12:11pm
Elphaba,
I posted the entire article link. You read it and disagreed. I don't think my conclusions were drawn irrationally. I, of course, only posted the part I wanted people to hear. My post was not about the existence of the article or even what happened. My post was about the lack of true repentence of our military mistakes -- endemic of this whole Iraq mess.
We are blowing up cars because they were driving "irrationally". I'm not sure that "firing warning shots" really encourages people to stop. Perhaps you could consider the Iraqi's emotional state as well as the troops'.
The problem with their "emotional" state is that it so parallels the American trigger-happy state we have gotten ourselves into post-911. It makes everyone a threat, and we shoot people we don't need to shoot.
THAT is the point of the post.
re: US kills more civilians#3
Posted: 11/21/05 at 12:19pm
actually the point of the it all is you have never been in a combat situation, I HAVE. I know how it feels, and what happens when in such a situation, you do not.
You admit posting the part of the article you want people to see, which in itself says there is a part you do not want people to see.......which I question.
Any war, ANY WAR, in the history of our planet has had this happen, American Revolution, WW1, WW2, and it sadly is just a part of war.
There are much better ways to show why this war is wrong. If it's my life, or a civilians, who is doing things that make me feel unsafe for my life, it is MY life.
Far too many friends died in Vietnam because they did not pay attention to things that did not appear to be what they are.
I have always respected your posts.......but not this one. Truly, you have no idea what you are talking about.
As liberals and democrats, there are far better ways that we can make our point, than to question what a man, or woman does in a combat situation. Until you are there, commenting, is only blowing wind out of your A**.
Again, I respect you and your opinions, but you are way off base here.
We are not taking Iraqi civilians and doing experiments on them as Mengele did to civilians during WW2, we are not killing off families of patriots as the British did during the American revolution, nor are we doing to civilians what North and South forces did during our own Civil War.
Stop pretending we are
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
re: US kills more civilians#4
Posted: 11/21/05 at 12:36pm
What subjects are we allowed to talk about if we have not been involved in them?
I have been a part of the political process since I was 18 years old. Isn't this a political issue?
I have never been an actor on a Broadway stage -- should I be allowed to talk about what I like and don't like on stage?
I understand and respect fully your history as a member of the military. One of the things you fought for was my ability to speak up when I feel something is wrong. I would much rather have you tell me the sort of things that go on psychologically to soldiers than have you tell me what I can and can't discuss on a message board. Tell me what it was like so I can learn from your experience. Writing responses that seem (to my eye) to be angry does not help us understand one another.
I understand that there have been worse things we have done to civilians. My point is that doing ANYTHING to civilians is wrong. That's one of the myriad of reasons I think war is not only morally wrong, but intellectually and politically inferior. Tell me about how your experience would differ with me. What goes on inside the head of a soldier? Is it more than just being jumpy?
re: US kills more civilians#5
Posted: 11/21/05 at 1:05pm
true, you are right. You have a right to your opinion.
And yes, it is much more than being jumpy. You are somewhere you do not want to be, (and possibly do not believe in what you are doing).....you are there for reasons you are told to help the local population, who you cannot communicate with (at first) anyway. You are in conditions you have never imagined, and you do not know if that little boy walking up to you smiling has a bomb attached to him.
Should you shoot him? Of course not....BUT........you have to be careful, and on top of all of this, you are exhausted.....poorly supplied, and your countrys biggest family holidays are right around the corner.
War is not a pretty thing. But.......there are times when it's needed. Nazi Germany didn't listen to reason, Imperial Japan sent kamakazis against ships (how wacko is that?, King George would not listen.
So you think we should NOT have fought? Think how horrible the world may have become then?
There are times when war is the only solution, as horrible as that thought may be. The key is realizing when is and when is not the time.
re: US kills more civilians#6
Posted: 11/21/05 at 1:07pmYou're both on the same side. Stop fighting and fight the REAL enemy.
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
re: US kills more civilians#7
Posted: 11/21/05 at 2:15pm
Elphaba and I are often on the same side. I would, however, say that I am one of those people who thinks that war is always wrong, and never the smart solution (yes, even Nazi Germany). War begets war and peace begets peace. I know it sounds dogmatic, but it is what I believe, and I think history proves it pretty well.
As far as the mindset of the soldiers go, I think having to go to a foreign country and go through those sorts of situations without proper equipment and training and the language barriers, etc. must be so difficult. I don't blame the soldier who reacts that way. I blame the government who doesn't care enough to train such a soldier, the government who doesn't care enough to invest in protecting that soldier with all possible technology, and, of course, the government who sees that soldier's safety is expendible for the ego of an administration.
re: US kills more civilians#8
Posted: 11/21/05 at 3:15pm
"War begets war and peace begets peace. I know it sounds dogmatic, but it is what I believe, and I think history proves it pretty well."
That would be great if the entire world was of one collective Borgian mind, but it isn't and never has been. History proves that perfectly. Jesus was all about peace and love and his existence has been the catalyst of wars over ceturies and the death of millions.
If someone is trying to kill me, I will not smile and give them a hug. I will fight back any way possible to save myself or those I love. The death of the innocent is always tragic. Just like the untimely death of someone hit by a drunk driver, or from an aneurism, or falling down the stairs. Death is a fact of life and could always be prevented if we could travel back in time. The deaths of these civilians should be rightly mourned, just like the deaths of our soldiers killed in terrorist bombings in Iraq, or the victims of the recent terrorist bombings that were not killed by Americans that you don't single out for criticism.
"I blame the government who doesn't care enough to train such a soldier, the government who doesn't care enough to invest in protecting that soldier with all possible technology, and, of course, the government who sees that soldier's safety is expendible for the ego of an administration."
But do you ever blame any other governments other than ours?
"My post was about the lack of true repentence of our military mistakes -- endemic of this whole Iraq mess."
We have been far more repentent than our enemies, but you don't demand their repentence. Why not?
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
re: US kills more civilians#9
Posted: 11/21/05 at 3:25pm
This line seems to be the main thrust of your post, so I'll just respond to it:
"We have been far more repentent than our enemies, but you don't demand their repentence. Why not?"
Because I don't know them well enough to do so. I do know America and America's politics well-enough to know we are not in the right.
re: US kills more civilians#10
Posted: 11/21/05 at 3:57pmHow much do you need to know about terrorist attacks to know they are not in the right either? I'm just saying it looks as though your expectations of pacifism are somewhat biased.
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
re: US kills more civilians#11
Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:04pm
Of course they are not right. But, because I don't know anything about them, I can't communicate to them the importance of laying down arms.
I do, however, know my own culture. Thus, I speak here.
re: US kills more civilians#12
Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:33pmWell, good luck with that. I think the sentiment is kind, but unfortunately unrealistic. In the history of mankind (both scientific and religious), there has always been war. As long as there is love, there is always hate, against which it love is measured. As long as there is hate, there is war, be it on a personal or global scale. And with every war, there is physical violence. Being a martyr to peace might be admirable, but it is also suicidal. One can only hope a martyr's death might bring peace, but as history shows, it often only brings more violence. By choosing not to defend yourself with weapons against weapons, then you have to accept the responsibility of possibly causing the death of the innocent for those whom you wish to influence. Either way, innocent people will die.
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