WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?
WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/9/04
WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#0
Posted: 12/8/04 at 11:52am
This topic is older than the hills, but this snippet from Salon.com got me thinking...does WILL AND GRACE need to step up and start being a little more political (a la Norman Lear in his heyday)in it's approach? It never portrays gay relationships realistically, no one ever says "I love you" or kisses or anything like that, whenever homophobia is presented it's presented quaintly. Where are the balls of WILL AND GRACE??....what are your thoughts?
Here's the bit:
When Mayor Gavin Newsom sanctioned more than 4,000 same-sex unions at San Francisco City Hall in February and put the gay-marriage issue on the election-year marquee in neon pink and purple, cautious progressives and conservative Democrats expressed deep worry that it was just "too much too fast," and could cause a damaging backlash.
Was it all a bunch of excessive hand-wringing? According to a New York Times report this week examining how advertising strategies played out in the presidential campaign, America is now full of Republicans who would say some of their best friends are gay.
Or, at least, their best friends from TV land.
One of the shows most popular with Republicans, especially Republican women ages 18 to 34, turned out to be 'Will & Grace,' the sitcom about gay life in New York," the Times reported. "As a result, while Mr. Bush was shoring up his conservative credentials by supporting a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage, his advertising team was buying time on a program that celebrates gay culture."
But if Team Bush was happy to go both ways on the issue, blogger Andrew Sullivan says he's neither surprised nor impressed by the data revealed in the Times' report. "The gay characters on 'Will and Grace' are either mainstream and sex-less, like Will, or the gay version of 'Step'n'fetchit', from an actor who refuses to say publicly that he's gay. That's exactly how many Republicans like their homosexuals. Just don't ask to be treated like an equal human being."
Whether shameless prime-time pandering or not, the advent of "Will & Grace" doesn't have the denizens of Free Republic too concerned, now that America's future has been born again with Bush's reelection.
"All of this in-your-face stuff which is being hurled at us has indeed awakened a sleeping giant," wrote one poster last week. "The pro family values movement, I believe, is for real and will have a lasting effect on our culture. Finally, the silent majority is fighting back: witness the anti-ACLU and anti-UN movements, the increase in reparative therapy programs to 'un-do' homosexuality, the pro-marriage ballot initiatives, etc. And, don't discount the possibility that the [U.S. Supreme Court] will make a sharp right turn in the next few years, which will, in itself, slow down, and perhaps even reverse, the left-wing lunacy."
That was a tame response compared with the anti-gay nastiness unleashed by the Freepers last year against Massachusetts' Supreme Court "fudgepackers" and the Rick Santorum-esque bestial wickedness the justices had officially let loose at the altar of civil unions.
But while some on the far right may have toned down the volume a notch in the glow of election-year victory, some Evangelical Christians are cranking up the anti-gay rhetoric as they look to cash in on their efforts to put Bush back in office.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#1
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:01pmI've always said that Will and Grace is to the gay rights movement as Stepin Fetchit was to the civil rights movement.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#2
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:03pm
"I've always said that Will and Grace is to the gay rights movement as Stepin Fetchit was to the civil rights movement."
You've always said whatever is contrary to the discussion at hand is all.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#3
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:03pmI believe that the writing of the show is that the writers have no other interest than collecting a paycheck. A few weeks ago, Joan of Arcadia slipped in a bash against George W. Bush. JOA is only in its second season. W&G should really be pushing the envelope by now. Obviously, they are happy just sitting back and letting the profits roll in.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#4
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:07pm
"You've always said whatever is contrary to the discussion at hand is all."
Excuse me Miss Rath... but how is my comment about Will and Grace contrary to the discussion at hand? When I want your opinion about one of my posts, I'll let you know. And don't get pissy with me just because I said your dear "acquaintance" Christine Lahty thinks her s#*t doesn't stink. Apparently, the two of you have a lot in common.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#5
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:07pm
Will and grace made a turn a few seasons ago adn it looked like it was going to get political, then all of sudden they seemed to get scared and run the other way. Now will doesnt even really kiss his bf on the show, they just kinda hug and thats about it. It has become the straightest gay show out there!
They have even toned down Jack, where are all his boy toys?
"Watching a frat boy realize just what he put his d!ck in...ex's getting std's...schadenfruede" ~ Ave Q
"when dangers near, exploit their fear" ~ Reefer Madness the Musical
Stand-by Joined: 10/19/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#6
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:18pm
As much as I understand what you are trying to say, I think it's important to keep some perspective.
It's a sitcom. It's MAIN PURPOSE is to make me laugh, (which it does) and make money for the network (which I assume it does since it's still on the air).
I think "pushing the envelope" should be left to programs that are better suited to do that.
W&G is just a bit of fluff that's fun to watch. It will never be more than that. The minute it goes all "We've got an agenda" it'll lose it's appeal. I don't want to be preached to about ANYTHING by a sitcom.
That's what killed "Ellen". It became more about ELLEN BEING GAY! instead of about this lady named Ellen who happened to be gay and she had some goofy friends and such....
It's a turn-off to people. I don't want to hear an agenda from a sitcom. I just want to laugh.
Hope that made sense.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#7
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:20pmCurtainUp, pay attention. That's Dame who knows Lahti, not me.
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/9/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#8
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:21pmBut a sitcom can and should be political....I mean, I think WILL AND GRACE is making a statement by just being there. ALL art is political...I just think the show could still be hilarious and add some depth at the same time. Mixing in the issues like the Norman Lear sitcoms (huge hits, all) of the seventies.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#9
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:29pm
"CurtainUp, pay attention. That's Dame who knows Lahti, not me."
I assumed that she was an acquaintance of yours as well Rath, since you seemed to know that her s#*t, in fact, didn't stink. 
Stand-by Joined: 10/19/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#10
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:31pm
I agree a sitcom CAN be political. But SHOULD be political? No.
The thing about (for instance) "All in the Family" and/or "Maude" was that they started out political.
W&G didn't. They do what they do and they do it fine. They make a fine fluffy 1/2 hour. That's it. If they tried to go all political it would be out of character for the show. Not every show is cut out to be political.
Stand-by Joined: 10/19/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#11
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:35pm
Let me just quickly add that although I appreciate what "All in the Family" and those other shows did with being political; I don't find myself watching them as much as the "fun" stuff.
I can watch a Lucy episode over and over, but Archie screaming about "Pinkos" over and over and over get's a bit grinding. It gets to be too much. I just want to laugh. If I want to hear agendas I'll watch the news or watch a drama.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#12
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:40pm
"But a sitcom can and should be political...
I couldn't agree more. Some of the best sitcoms have had strong political views (i.e. All in the Family, Maude, MASH) and they're still being rerun today. A sitcom doesn't have to be political, but if you're not looking to "push the envelope" or make a statement, then why have a show that features two openly gay characters to begin with?
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#13
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:46pm
I, personally, have never liked this show. (and basically for the same reasons I disliked Seinfeld)...this is a show about rotten people with no morals who constantly do bad things to others and feel no remorse. Who needs to see that? Isn't the world a hard enough place to live in without purposely watching "entertainment" that is based upon characters who are just plain not nice?
I won't waste my time on it.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#14
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:49pm
"You've always said whatever is contrary to the discussion at hand is all."
Oh... and I was just wondering Rath, why is it OK for you to express your dissenting opinion about a performer (see Josh Groban Thread), but it's not OK for me to? Is it because you think you're opinion is worth more than mine? I'm just trying to understand when it's OK to be "contrary to the discussion at hand" and when it isnt.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#15
Posted: 12/8/04 at 12:50pm
"then why have a show that features two openly gay characters to begin with?"
Good point. The openly gay character thing was done way back in the 1970's. Gay characters appeared on "Soap" and "Alice". Even the Simpsons have gone farther than W&G.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#16
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:24pm
Two things, Curtain. First my comment about Lahti was light-hearted, just a reference to the fact that I think she's one of our finer actresses.
As far as the other, everyone has the right to a dissenting opinion - I just find you to be about 99% dissenting to 1% agreeing. That's what I was commenting on.
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/8/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#17
Posted: 12/8/04 at 3:55pmRath... not to beat a dead horse, but... 99% dissenting??? Exactly what threads are you basing your percentages on? Opinionated... yes. Most definitely. As are you. Perhaps I disagree with YOUR opinion 99% of the time. I don't know. Since this is the first direct interaction that I can recall the two of us having since I joined the board. But 99% dissenting overall? I think not. On a whole, I believe I agree with the general consensus about as often as I disagree. And as far as this thread is concerned, I certainly wasn't being "contrary to the discussion at hand" as there really wasn't any discussion at hand yet, and I was the first to post a reply. Please don't come after me just because you don't agree with my opinions. I've seen it happen too many times on this board. Someone, with a few "fans" of their own, doesn't like what someone has to say, so they ban together to bad-mouth and discredit the person in an attempt to ostracize them from the rest of the baord. Well... I'm not easily intimidated, and I'm not going anywhere. So you might as well get used to my having an opinion, or get used to ignoring my posts entirely. Your choice.
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/15/03
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#18
Posted: 12/8/04 at 5:29pm
If no one has noticed: WILL AND GRACE has peaked. The new writers aren't nearly as sharp as the previous crew and the characters have become downright cruel. This show is now in the limbo that FRASIER was when Jane Leaves was pregnant and temporarily left the show. That's when the show lost its punch and it never really recovered it. The same is true with W&G. Could it have lost its momentum as a result of Debra Messing's pregnancy?
Political or not, WILL AND GRACE is no longer the first-rate show it once was.
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#19
Posted: 12/8/04 at 8:01pmThis show is starting to go down the tubes. I think it started as soon as Grace married Leo because it seemed to have lost it's punch. I don't even enjoy Jack and Karen as much anymore. Being a devoted Will and Grace fan, I will watch reruns of it on other networks.
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/25/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#20
Posted: 12/8/04 at 8:15pmI agree, once Grace got together with Leo, the show started to go downhill, because it took itself more seriously than it really is. Oh, and before most of their stunt casting was hilarious (Minnie Driver and Matt Damon, anyone?) but after a while it became too contrived and unneccesary (and unfunny) - i.e. J.Lo and Janet Jackson.
"Good luck returning my ass!" - Wilhemina Slater
"This is my breakfast, lunch and f***ing dinner right here. I'm not even f***in' joking." - Colin Farrell
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/13/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#21
Posted: 12/8/04 at 8:18pm
WHOA, that first post was TOO long, so I just read what Tiff wrote!
I agree, but now that the Leo crap is over, it's getting better!
YAY!
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#22
Posted: 12/9/04 at 5:04am
i think there are ways to talk about politics in a sitcom without being preachy or feeling like an agenda was being shoved in your face. it would be impossible for a show like "all in the family" to come out these days, because the minute meathead would say something contrary to archie, BAM the lobbiest groups get their panties in a bundle, and you're getting emails from the american family association asking you to boycott the products in the advertisments in the show (like they've done with nip/tuck and wonderfalls, who both had lesbians as characters). i think we need a lil norman lear action these days, but i don't know how it could happen. the climate is too different. i am, however, holding out hope, and that includes the wish that will and grace would take some bolder steps. if you already know the show you're watching is about gay people, you're not going to be as shocked as you would be if it were on a show that normally doesn't push the envelope (some people consider a show about two gay people already pushing the envelope, despite their lack of homoSEXualness).
>>The pro family values movement...
i find that phrase so interesting, because more often than not, there's probably a gay person in your family. if not your immediate family, at least the extended. how can you be "pro family values" and being fighting against your brothers and sisters? which reminds me... "everyone else is a sistah or brotha, so why do we complicate our lives so much by being at war with eachother?"
Stand-by Joined: 10/19/04
re: WILL AND GRACE....not political enough?#23
Posted: 12/9/04 at 8:07am
I do have to agree that Leo was a turning-point.
Leo = "Cousin Oliver"
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