cheney calls for documents showing "torture" worked to be released- Page 3

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 1:46pm

i think according to the article, that they were trying to find the link between al qaeda and iraq back in 2002 before they even had ksm. there was no waterboarding happening then.

ksm, was - i believe it has been alleged - waterboarded specifically in relation to the los angeles plot. he was - again according to what i have read - one of only three detainees ever to receive that form of interrogation. 3 subjects in seven years? if that's true, i think it shows that the technique was only being used for a specific purpose.

i am also curious as to what constituted a "time" of the 183. was it every time they poured water? was a session counted as one "time" regardless of how many times he got the water? not so much our of ghoulish curiosity and the pleasure it gives me knowing that an enemy of humanity suffered, but more so to see just exactly how tightly this kind of this was indeed monitored as it seems like it was tightly controlled.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 1:49pm

I want to say no too.

But I assume that the Clintons and Bush and Cheney--and now Obama--have had access to information that we do not have, and I wonder what that information would do to my perception of danger.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 1:50pm

well, if dick gets his way, you just might find out.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 2:04pm

Papa, it has been reported that:

"There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used," the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.

"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."

It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times in March 2003 according to a newly released Justice Department document.

"There was constant pressure on the intelligence agencies and the interrogators to do whatever it took to get that information out of the detainees, especially the few high-value ones we had, and when people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney's and Rumsfeld's people to push harder," he continued."




Abusive tactics used to seek Iraq-al Qaida link Updated On: 4/22/09 at 02:04 PM

[Radiana]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 2:25pm

Updated On: 4/24/09 at 02:25 PM

[Q]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 2:33pm

"I would imagine"

I tend to think of this subject as one to be approached with what you KNOW, rather than what you IMAGINE.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 2:35pm

again, my unnamed source says yours is a big fat liar.

and mclatchey's on the same footing as cns and rawstory as far as that goes.

Updated On: 4/22/09 at 02:35 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 4:09pm

OK - I honestly think of the source a bit differently, but so be it.

Maybe someday we will know the truth.

[Radiana]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 4:15pm

Updated On: 4/24/09 at 04:15 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 4:24pm

you're both naive and wrong.

*edit - radiana, not ywiw. yw's just wrong.

Updated On: 4/22/09 at 04:24 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 4:32pm

The feeling is mutual papa

BTW - what would be a credible source? I am just curious.

Updated On: 4/22/09 at 04:32 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 5:36pm

Perhaps the worst thing that George Bush has done has made everyone so cavalier about the destruction of our most sacred document the constitution.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 5:38pm

I find it quite illuminating that Mr. Bush would defile the constitution and torture someone to stop a theoretical terrorist attack when he wouldn't even cut short his vacation to stop an actual one.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 4/22/09 at 6:18pm

I guess once an attack starts it is no longer theoretical. Of course people will die but what the hell. As long as we don't do anymore that tell the prisoner that we will hold our breath until we turn blue unless they give us the information. This is all that matters.

[Radiana]

Posted: 4/24/09 at 3:17am

Updated On: 4/24/09 at 03:17 AM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/24/09 at 4:42am

Once upon a time, we all sat down and decided what sort of country this would be. We decided that the constitution was going to be the foundation and the supreme court would be the final arbiter. So you can think that abortion is murder (just like some people think that Chubycapras roam the southwest) but the matter has been sorted out by the supreme court.

So now, if we have a terrorist attack and people decide we need to become a nation that tortures our enemies, we vote to amend to Constitution- and it is a long and difficult process because they REALLY want us to think carefully and make sure that is what we want to do. It really is a pretty wonderful system.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/24/09 at 8:56am

joe, can you cite the clauses specifically prohibiting waterboarding?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/24/09 at 9:47am

As long as we're talking about cruel and unusual punishment maybe we should consider the cruel and unusual punishment given to late term fetuses. They must be feeling tremendous pain as they are put to death. Just something to think about.

Oh for crap's sake, Radiator, are you capable of sticking to the topic or would you rather we ALL pull all our pet peeves into this thread?

How about the cruel and unusual being inflicted on Iraqi gays by the government we went to war for?

According to this article, they torture them by using a skin glue that can only be reemoved by surgery and close up their anuses.

Then they give them a drink to induce diarrhea, which results in a slow painful death.


Just something ELSE to think about, Radiator.

BUT IN AN APPROPRIATE THREAD!
Report: Iraqi gays painfully tortured, killed in Baghdad crackdown

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/24/09 at 2:36pm

so national review answers my query about what that 183 number was actually counting: pours.

pretty much what i thought.

no more than 2 sessions per day, max 6 pours per session, no pour lasting longer than 40 seconds, no session lasting longer than 2 hours.

but then, it's unnamed sources...just like ywiw's.
who do you believe?