ASCAP actions reasonable?

[CJWesselman]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 7:08am

I'm not sure of the whole story behind this so I may unfortunatley be missing a key detail, but from what I've been told this seems to be all the important and correct details. All people and names have been changed. That having been said, responses to this:

**Central State University (CSU)'s theatre department was performing it's annual end of the year cabarets a few weeks ago. The cabarets are written and put together by students as part of the Musical Theatre Performance III class. As with most cabarets, the students pick a topic and then select proper/appropriate material and build a 20-60 minute show.

For the past 4 or 5 years, CSU has held these cabarets in a small theatre near the University and has either charged nothing or only enough to pay for the rental of the theatre. No profit is made and it is simply an opportunity for the students to perform their cabarets in front of an audience. This year, CSU decided to move their cabarets to Frank's Bar in the downtown of the nearby metropolis due to the increased seating available. CSU charged nothing for admittance, but Frank's Bar decided to charge a fee. It just so happened that the area's ASCAP representative caught word of the cabarets and attended. After watching, he proceeded to gather information about everyone's cabaret, copying down each song that was performed. ASCAP then slapped CSU with a major fine (somewhere in the area of $50,000) for using material without paying for the rights. Eventually ASCAP lowered the fine significantly, but now CSU is under careful watch (apparently.) The teacher of the class, who is the musical director for the department, was almost fired and is now on probation and under careful supervision. It's been said that students will no longer be allowed to make copies of sheet music (which he's bought and collected over the years) which could drastically alter the availablity of music to many, many students who would otherwise have no outlet. The matter is still being dealt with.**

When I heard about this, I was confused. Then I tried to sort it all out and realized I wasn't exactly familiar with copyright rules and violations for this sort of thing. But, in my mind, I can only assume that if what CSU did was actually wrong and illegal, then wouldn't any group/tour troupe/etc performing material from any show they haven't bought the rights for in almost any situation be illegal? Maybe it's just the money aspect, however. Even so, I myself have attended many fundraisers/benefits where someone performs material from a show. Is that illegal? I guess I was just under the impression that if you buy the sheet musical (or obtain it in any other legal fashion), then it was okay to perform it? Not, like, an entire show, but just a song or something. You see why I'm confused, now? lol. I guess I'd just like people's opinions on if they think CSU was at fault and also some insight on the legality of performing show material in public. Thank you very much.

[tophertilson]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 8:55am

Rules is rules, folks. Good intentions or not. I'm sure ASCAP can make exceptions if they so choose. But they must be asked first.

TT

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 9:57am

If you're building a "set show" that has locked, regular music (in other words, it isn't random individual songs that might be performed once on a sporadic schedule), you must pay a nominal fee through ASCAP or BMI to license the music.

The sad thing is it's not even that steep. If they'd only followed the rules up front, they wouldn't be paying these large fines now.

I've been a member of ASCAP for 17 years, and I know I wouldn't want any of my music used or performed illegally.

Updated On: 5/22/06 at 09:57 AM

[Anakela]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 9:57am

1. Why should I pay for playing music in public?

2. What is a public performance?

4. I bought the record or sheet music. Why do I need permission to perform the music?

ASCAP licensing frequently asked questions

[tophertilson]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:13am

Because a songwriter (or two or three) spent a great deal of time and effort to create that song. They deserve proper compensation, even if it's just a token amount.

TT

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:19am

Those FINES seem pretty harsh, but the professor should have know she/he needed to get some sort of permission.

As for the copying of sheet music, no, just because you bought one piece of music does NOT give you the right to make copies for your friends or students. That is pretty well known. It is the same as bootlegging CDs or DVDs.



(Updated for clarification)

Updated On: 5/22/06 at 11:19 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:28am

These aren't the fees you're looking at anymore, these are fines for the illegal use of the songs.

The up-front fees are usually nominal, as TT mentioned. Often, they can even work out a flat rate for usage, and they do take into consideration how and where the material is being used.

The fines for illegal use after the fact, however, are not nominal... as you can see.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:34am

When will people ever learn? Anakela, you sound like the people who think that because they bought a seat to a show they can do anything they want even if it constitutes rude behavior.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:38am

Oops, sorry Best, that is what I meant...fines,not fees. The FINES seem harsh for this situation.

[Anakela]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:48am

Anakela, you sound like the people who think that because they bought a seat to a show they can do anything they want even if it constitutes rude behavior.

Um- what? What the hell did I do that was rude behaviour?? (Besides using the word hell right there).

If you're talking about my earlier post in this thread, I was not asking those questions in my post, I was listing the questions that are *answered* on the ASCAP website, which was that nifty link posted at the bottom of said questions.

Anyone who has read any of my earlier posts here in the various rude behaviour threads, and/or in that thread about the high school that got away with not obtaining the rights to Chicago and was still allowed to perform, knows how I feel about these issues, and I totally have no idea what the hell you're talking about that I did that lumps me in with 'those people.'

[ShuQ]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:49am

I think it's too bad that companies like these don't realize that it's these students, upcoming performers, that are going to keep earning them money 50 years from now. I think that if it's used for educational purposes, which, in this case, it was, then there should be some room for exception in the violation.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:51am

Yes, Tom, Anakela was posing those questions with a LINK to the FAQ's at ASCAP's web site, not asking them.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 11:52am

Education ain't free. If you make exceptions for educational performances many of these composers would never see a cent.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 12:07pm

This reminds me of when I was in junior high school and we got a new music teacher. I went by his office to introduce myself during his first day and noticed he was shaking his head and "tsk-tsking" as he was perusing through the voluminous file cabinets filled with sheet music left by his predecessor. "All this stuff is illegal" and he then proceeded to explain copyright law to me as it applied to this context. He told me that while copyright law does provide certain exceptions for copying protected materials within an educational context (and that some companies will provide music to schools for a much lower cost) "you can't just take a piece of sheet music, copy it 50 times and hand it out to a class without permission."

He then asked me to go pull one of the large trash cans out of the hall into his office and he spent the next two days throwing out tons and tons of photocopied sheet music.

[JBSinger]

Posted: 5/22/06 at 4:01pm

The fault actually seems to lie with the School. My university had blanket ASCAP/BMI contracts which covered all of our student/faculty performances. I'm actually pretty surprised that this school did not. This is not a punishment of the students, rather it is punishing an oblivious faculty (just like the Bronx production of Chicago - was that director on crack or what?).