Jerry Springer - The Opera forced to stay off Broadway- Page 5

[matthius202]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 2:28pm

not take it personally?...you used my name. you singled ME out. this is so upsetting...and I really shouldn't let it.
I want to say thank you to those that are defending me. It means a lot to me.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 2:35pm

"I am just amazed that you fail to see what the scriptures are clearly saying on this subject."

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was not spoon fed anything. I did the reading and analysis on my own from both Christian and scientific resources as well as the Bible itself. The Bible has its own contradictions regarding what is considered "holy". Even Jesus recognized that the Old Testament was flawed and declared the laws of Leviticus obsolete with the exception of one. Two thousand years later, it could be possible that similar passages in the New Testament could also be obsolete, but it is willful ignorance that prevents conservative Christians from even considering the idea. I'm not saying they are obsolete, but I will admit that it is a possibility.

One of God's gifts to humans is the capacity for abstract thought. I don't think He is offended if we question and analyze what Man considers to be His word. I think he is offended enough by the likes of Benny Hinn. Millions of Evangelical Christians are being ripped off and lied to by this corrupt crook. If you wonder why people attack Christians, it is because of men like him. He is Christian hypocrasy in its purest form.

[joniray]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 2:36pm

Godlovesyou, people like you create so much pain and suffering in this world and have created so many wars through the ages. Words like yours can create and inspire such hate. The things you do and say in the name of Jesus and God...it makes me fear for humanity.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/12/05 at 6:08pm

And by the way, in the show, Mary NEVER performs any sex acts on Jesus or anyone else. Anyone who has seen the show (or knows exactly what they are protesting) would know that.

[Godlovesyou]

Posted: 3/14/05 at 6:08pm

Mr Matt: It sounds like you now want to pick and choose which parts of the bible are relevant for you, what gives you the authority to do that. As for Benny Hinn, I don’t know who he is and don’t follow him, I follow Jesus Christ.

Re: The sex act on Jesus, you are right it was not done by Mary, but rather by Eve.

Matthius, you were the one who chose to come onto this message board and boast of the fact that you were a “Gay Christian”. You put your own name to the comment and therefore put this point up for discussion.

Joniray: The things that I have been saying are in the Bible, if you don’t like them then that is your problem, but they are still going to be there. Such as:

Do you know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6 v9.

The rest of Chapter 6 and chapter 7 should also be read too, it is important to take the verse in its context.

Should we speak out and preach against sin?

John the Baptist did and lost his head as a result, he also said to the religious leaders,
“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3: v7-8

If you want to check out what type of fruit we should produce, go to Galatians 5: 22-23, or to get it in context Vs 16-26

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 2:58am

Umm I've basically seen this conversation go from bad to worse. I'm only chiming in because Benny Hinn was mentioned. My question is to Mister Matt..Why do you think Benny Hinn's a crook? I mean personally I've seen first hand what his ministry does. Are you responding to the Dateline "investigation"? Because you know sensationalist new magazines like that are probably along the same lines of what politicians do. Their #1 motivation is ratings, ratings, ratings. Just a thought.
Also Godlovesyou I'm sort of confused by your verse quoting. What version of the Bible do you have? I have the King James version and my 1 Cor. 6:9 says:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? be not decieved: Neither fornicators, nor idoliters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....
I don't see any mention of male prostitutes (ps i'm thinking women prostitutes are bad too) and the Fourth Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary defines effeminate as :

1. Having qualities or characteristics more often associated with women than men. See Synonyms at female.
2. Characterized by weakness and excessive refinement.

Now nowadays effeminate is used as a word to describe a female like male. But here it doesn't make that destinction. As a matter of fact the word stems from Middle English which is probably closer to the time the King James version of the Bible was translated. Now this is an honest question...Not an attack... How do you get homosexual offenders (and male prostitutes) in your version when in the most popular biblical translation, it doesn't really mention Homosexuality? also what about Lesbians? People have made no comment about the fact that the Bible speaks specifically about "man laying with man as he does a woman". Why aren't women mentioned too in that sense. I mean women were given specific commandments too. ok I think this is getting long. I'm looking forward to a response.

Updated On: 3/15/05 at 02:58 AM

[phantom_tenor]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 6:36am

What happened to freedom of speech? Are we living in Nazi Germany?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 8:27am

EDITED: I'm not replying to the brick wall any more. It's impossible to intelligently debate with willful ignorance. The hypocrasy in Godlovesyou's last post speaks for itself.

Updated On: 3/15/05 at 08:27 AM

[Godlovesyou]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 10:13am

Jazzysuite: You have raised some very interesting points, which have caused me to do some further study.

The version that I was using when I quoted all these verses was The NIV – New International Version. This is now used by some 90% of churches in Britain. I personally still prefer the KJV for studying, however for ease of use at Church, I either use the NKJV or NIV. I have just checked my NKJV and found that it uses the terms homosexuals and sodomites instead of the KJV’s effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind.

The original Greek word used, which has been translated as effeminate or homosexual is malakos. This word appears in the original Greek on 4 occasions. On the other 3 occasions it has been translated as soft raiment of soft clothing. Malakos is used twice in Matt 11:8 and once in Luke 7: 25.

In Thayer’s Greek lexicon of the New Testament (which is linked numerically to Strong’s Concordance) It states, “Like the Latin mollis; metaphor and in a bad sense: effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness. I guess this is how it came to be translates as Male prostitute in the NIV.

I do of course agree with you that effeminate does have a totally different meaning today to what it had in 1611. Some other words have also changed in their meaning and this is one reason why I now tend to use the NKJV and NIV quite a bit.

On the subject of lesbianism being covered it the Bible, many commentators see this subject being covered in Romans 1: 26, with Romans 1: 27 commencing with the word “Likewise”, before going on to talk about the male perversions.

I do agree with you that all prostitution is bad whether male or female, it all comes under sexual immorality.

It has been very nice to have some sensible reasoned questions, rather than the torrent abuse that has been directed at me.

Just one question for Mr Matt. Why is it hypocrisy to quote scripture from the bible?

[keggss23]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 11:25am

"It has been very nice to have some sensible reasoned questions, rather than the torrent abuse that has been directed at me."

Perhaps that is because you can't seem to answer any questions honestly without regurgitating some random bible passage.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 2:11pm

GodLovesYou - It's not hypocrisy to quote scripture, but it is hypocrisy to use verses out of context as a basis of an argument and then say that other verses should be used in context. The same could be said of accusing others of picking and choosing passages of the Bible to follow when that is precisely what most Christians do (including Jesus himself).

And if you read my posts, I had many sensible reasonable non-abusive questions.

In any case, believe what you want. Just don't try to enforce it as the last and final word regarding eveyone and what they should or should not believe. That is your personal decision and your passion to your faith is commendable. Keep in mind that there are other faiths in this world that are of equal value to those who choose to follow them. There is nothing on this earth that proves one religion is correct and all others are wrong. Back to the original subject, there were also many people who pay the television tax who wished to see Jerry Springer the Opera. Obviously, more than those who didn't, which is why it aired. The moral responsibility of airing the show lies in the BBC. The moral responsibility in viewing the show lies in the audience. Protesting the show will not change the fact that it was written, produced, and performed and will most likely do the same in the US. Should the show fail to be produced as a result of protests and demonstrations, what is truly accomplished? Does it erase the show from history? Does it nullify its existence? Quite the opposite, actually. Mostly what it will accomplish is quashing freedom of speech and freedom of religion and I am willing to bet the "victory" will tarnish rather than enhance the Christian reputation in the US.

And just to throw this in (not directed at anyone specifically), regarding gay marriage, there is nothing in the Bible that mentions the laws of the United States.

Jazzysuite - The verse regarding man laying with man as with a woman comes from one of the many Laws of Leviticus that Christians were taught to ignore except when applying them to homosexuals.

[Godlovesyou]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 5:15pm

Mr. Matt. The Cambridge Online dictionary definition of hypocrisy is "When someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time.

I truly believe what I have said and backed it up with scripture; my words and actions will always confirm what I believe on this. Therefore you cannot call it hypocrisy. You might want to call me dogmatic or strongly opinionated but you have definitely used the incorrect word for whatever it is you are trying to call me.

Christians do not ignore the book of Leviticus; however surely you realise in the O.T. people had to keep the law in order to please God, but it was impossible to keep and they failed miserably, therefore God sent his only Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins, Jesus is the new covenant by which we can now be reconciled to God. However although God has given us a new covenant, that does not mean the behaviour, which was clearly identified as sinful in the O.T. suddenly, becomes okay and in many cased the sinful behaviour is referred to again in the N.T. as we have already discussed.

You also need to answer Jazzysuite's question about why you think Benny Hinn is a Crook.

The U.K. tour of JSTO looks to be falling apart at the seams with only a 3 theatres having booked or scheduled the show. I am sure there will be tremendous opposition to it if it ever reaches the U.S.A.

For up to date information on what is happening with the show in England (From a Christian perspective) look at http://www.repentuk.com/index.htm

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 5:40pm

I have to be honest. Knowing the type of things that have been on and Off-Broadway, there's a reason why this production isn't coming together quite well and it's not because people think it's offensive. I mean c'mon, it's 2005. There's nudity on and off broadway, there's been revivals of Jesus Christ Superstar AND most importantly, NYC and the artists that live there are among the most liberal minded people. No there's something else stopping this production that's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. I think someone might be afraid of the content, but I doubt that it's the general public. I've already heard many Americans say that Jerry Springer is a great show. Well this could be interesting to watch.
Godlovesyou, I think you sort of chose the wrong verse in the New testament to try to prove that homosexuality is wrong. The 1 Corinthians translation is a little bit sketchy to say the least. I've looked up the meanings of the Greek words and the Latin and they weren't exactly talking about homosexuality per se. People can sort of get a homosexual undertone out of it if they wish. Now it's harder to dispute Romans Chapter 1. I mean in context it sort of says homosexuality is wrong. It says something similar, but not quite as clear in Jude v.10. Now if someone can logically refute this and give a sound argument I would really Love it because I'm gay and a Christian and I kind of would welcome the chance. I like being gay, but there's this sort of moral dilemma and I can't just walk away from my faith.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 8:01pm

Godlovesyou - Your reply on your knowledge of semantics is eloquent, but I truly believe what you said what hypocritical.

"Christians do not ignore the book of Leviticus."

I think you mean to say: Christians do not ignore ONLY the book of Leviticus. Many (if not most) Christians ignore much much more than just Leviticus.

Benny Hinn is televangelist who travels worldwide "healing" people. He makes blatant promises on national television to help people financially and they never see a dime. He promises to provide medical examinations as proof of his healings when those polled are simply asked a couple of questions and several have died from the diseases they thought they were "healed" from. He also claims to have given money to thousands of starving orphans worldwide, when he has helped less than 200. He also uses the millions donated to his ministry by his followers to vacation around the world and stay in hotels that range in rates from $1000-$10,000 per night, which the Ministry writes off a business expenses (they call them "layovers"). Dateline has exposed this information twice (including copies of his Ministry's financial receipts) and requested interviews, which he has promised to do and then never returns their calls. After the first expose, he told his congregation that the reason he did not grant them an interview was because, "The Lord told me not to."

And you wonder why Christians are easy targets of criticism? Google Benny Hinn and you will find a lot of information about him including many Christian websites that denounce him.

As I said, Godlovesyou, believe what you want. Just don't expect everyone to be Christians. Blasphemy may be cause for eternal damnation, but it is not actually illegal (at least it's not in the US). If you're a heterosexual repentant sinner who believes they will go to Heaven, then that's wonderful. I'll meet you there.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 3/15/05 at 9:03pm

Ok Mister Matt, like I said you've gotten all of your information from The Dateline expose. I've actually seen many of the people who interview the healed. They're interviewed by several doctors and are hence encouraged to go home and talk to their family physician. Do you know first hand that he helped less than 200 people? I mean as a christian myself my first thought is question the things that are attacking your faith first. Then if they are sound start questioning your faith. you've made no attempt to prove anything. There are just blanket accusations made by a news magazine. I'd like to point you to a quote from Pippin "now a newspaper wouldn't print anything that isn't true...would it?"

[jesseeinstein]

Posted: 3/16/05 at 7:51am

This is a shame.... It was a really enjoyable show in my opinion.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/16/05 at 8:14am

Jazzysuite - They were far more than blanket accusations. As I said, it was not the first time he was featured on Dateline. And they had the documentation to back it up. As I also said, Dateline was not my only source of info. Look him up. You will find numerous Christian organizations that denounce this man as well. Read my entire post before you start quoting Pippin to me. I did the research. Why don't you?

[jesseeinstein]

Posted: 3/16/05 at 8:52am

Wow- That last comment is the last time I make a comment before reading the entire thread!
-----------------------
Godlovesyou-I am surprised. You seem to be very eloquent. You like broadway enough to be posting on a Broadway Message Board, so you must be at least somewhat open minded since you are not part of the mainstream. Why then, are you lashing out at people on the board like Matthius202 when you get rebutted by him or Mister Matt? As to Benny Hinn, in my World Religions class, we even covered him. We did research on many websites, saw the dateline specials, etc. The only reason that people are "healed" is because of the adreniline rush. All of the people-thousands of thousands, there supporting them. It is an incredible thing, but that doesn't mean that Mr. Hinn is a good person. He donates something like 5% of what he earns to the needy. The rest of it goes to his private jet, and silk suits.

[joniray]

Posted: 3/16/05 at 10:27am

Godlovesyou, as a Christian, I would think that you would be most interested in what Jesus said then trying to jump thorough hoops making translations form to your way of thinking or what you have been taught. I would think, first and foremost, you would accept the teachings of Jesus over a modern day minister. Jesus must have covered dozens, if not hundreds of subjects through his teachings, which have all been well documented in the four gospels. What did he say about homosexuality? I mean, if it is such a cut-and-dry sin, he must have mentioned it at least once when he was covering so many subjects. Did he? It seems to me that the things that mattered to him he spoke about on several occasions and was very clear about his stance – clear enough that translations have all pretty much agreed on what he had to say. And the bible in general is very clear and consistent in meanings through the various versions and translations on the *main* sins (the ten commandments, for instance). If Jesus didn't take any stance on it, and the only mentions that modern scholars can find in the bible as a whole is three or four scattered verses (out of thousands) that have to be *interpreted* to possibly mean homosexuality, or *might have intended to refer to* homosexuality in it's original text, it seems to me it never was considered important enough an issue to justify persecuting a group of people the way that many modern day Christians do in the name of the bible.

That is why so many churches have begun performing marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples. Because, after looking through the original texts, bible scholars have discovered that nowhere in thousands of pages does it clearly say that homosexuality is a sin or even wrong in of itself.

I hope that you reconsider your attitude toward your fellow human beings that may be homosexual in the spirit of Christ's teachings (love, compassion, non-judgment which are things he actually DID speak about on many occasions).

[keggss23]

Posted: 3/16/05 at 12:50pm

I saw that same Dateline story on Benny Hinn and it made me sick. This man is a crook, a liar and a thief and he is doing all of it under the name of god. This is exactly what turns me off of religion, people think they can do whatever they want as long as they attach "in the name of god" to it and that makes it all ok.

Look at the track records of televangilists, they have all been uncovered for some kind of fraud, money laundering, adultery, etc. Just because he says he is a "Christian", doesn't mean that he practices what he preaches.

"After the first expose, he told his congregation that the reason he did not grant them an interview was because, "The Lord told me not to."

When I heard him say that, I literally laughed out loud. What a crock. Next time my boss asks me why I didn't turn a report in on time, I'll just say, "The Lord told me to" and I'm sure all will be forgiven.

[Godlovesyou]

Posted: 3/18/05 at 11:21am

jesseeinstein: I am not lashing out I am merely stating what the vast majority of Christians believe and what the bible clearly teaches.

joniray: 99.999% of all the relationships we read about in the bible are heterosexual and any references to same sex relationships (and there are more than 3 or 4 - but 1 is enough) are in the context of it being a sin.

You ask what Jesus had to say on the subject. Try reading Mark 10: 6-8 which in the NKJV says, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh, so then they are no longer two, but one flesh".

This should be clear to all that marriage relationships involves a male and a female.

Having said that, I am not one of these people who just believe the words of Jesus as recorded in the bible, I believe the whole of the bible. Drunkenness and drug abuse are two of the major evils that blight our society today, but they too got no mention from Jesus other than one verse in Luke where drunkenness is mentioned.

If someone studies the bible and comes to the conclusion that, "Nowhere in thousands of pages does it clearly say that homosexuality is a sin or even wrong in of itself". I do not think that you should really call them a scholar.

There may be a tiny number of Gay Churches that carry out same-sex weddings; you have exaggerated a bit when you used the term, "So many Churches".

Jesus also spoke a lot about judgment, holiness and righteousness.

By the way, which modern day minister were you referring to, I had not previously mentioned accepting teachings from any such person.



Updated On: 3/18/05 at 11:21 AM

[matthius202]

Posted: 3/18/05 at 11:41am

"BOASTED"...

[keggss23]

Posted: 3/18/05 at 12:27pm

"Jesus also spoke a lot about judgment, holiness and righteousness."

Just as you, Godlovesyou" has judged every person that has a different opinion than you and reveled in your own self-righteousness.

I don't believe in god, but I don't go around condemning those who do not share my opinion. I do not judge people based on their beliefs in god, religion, sexuality, race or gender. I guess, according to you, it is perfectly ok and even reasonable to judge everyone based soley on your interpretation of the bible. I also have the guts to state my opinion instead of hiding behind random bible passages.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 3/18/05 at 1:05pm

Wow, this thread really got off topic.

I'm chiming in to support Godlovesyou. I agree with many things he/she has said. For those of you who have criticized Benny Hinn, I would be very careful. The media never presents Christians in a favorable light. If his work is from God, and you are criticizing it, you will have to answer for being a stumbling block.

And back on topic, Christians have the right to protest against what they feel is blasphemous to their beliefs and JS-TO seems to be a blasphemous show.

[Woofman]

Posted: 3/18/05 at 3:18pm

Hello to all! I am new to this board.

Just had a few things to say to godlovesyou.

You need to take a look at another book besides the bible. I would suggest a psychology text book to start. Check out "Reaction Formation" it's a coping skill. It is typically used by a person so obsessed with something they do everything in their power to prove they are not interested in it.

Ex-gays, I don't think so, just confused gay people guilted into acting straight for a feeling of acceptance.

Alot of what you are relating (godlovesyou) seems to be something that you are just regurgitating. Be careful, once upon a time there was a christian group that left for South America, then one day they were told to drink some kool-aid by their leader. Was that God's will? or the behavior of lemmings?

As for the show, I have not seen it or heard much about it, but if you find it objectionable, don't watch it. In my country, my taxes go all the time to things I find objectionable and profane (war in Iraq).

godlovesyou, if you find this to be a personal attack it is. I am a proud out gay man and find your words personally offensive.