Jerry Springer - The Opera forced to stay off Broadway — Page 5

not take it personally?...you used my name. you singled ME out. this is so upsetting...and I really shouldn't let it.
I want to say thank you to those that are defending me. It means a lot to me.

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Godlovesyou, people like you create so much pain and suffering in this world and have created so many wars through the ages. Words like yours can create and inspire such hate. The things you do and say in the name of Jesus and God...it makes me fear for humanity.

Mr Matt: It sounds like you now want to pick and choose which parts of the bible are relevant for you, what gives you the authority to do that. As for Benny Hinn, I don’t know who he is and don’t follow him, I follow Jesus Christ.

Re: The sex act on Jesus, you are right it was not done by Mary, but rather by Eve.

Matthius, you were the one who chose to come onto this message board and boast of the fact that you were a “Gay Christian”. You put your own name to the comment and therefore put this point up for discussion.

Joniray: The things that I have been saying are in the Bible, if you don’t like them then that is your problem, but they are still going to be there. Such as:

Do you know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6 v9.

The rest of Chapter 6 and chapter 7 should also be read too, it is important to take the verse in its context.

Should we speak out and preach against sin?

John the Baptist did and lost his head as a result, he also said to the religious leaders,
“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3: v7-8

If you want to check out what type of fruit we should produce, go to Galatians 5: 22-23, or to get it in context Vs 16-26

What happened to freedom of speech? Are we living in Nazi Germany?

Jazzysuite: You have raised some very interesting points, which have caused me to do some further study.

The version that I was using when I quoted all these verses was The NIV – New International Version. This is now used by some 90% of churches in Britain. I personally still prefer the KJV for studying, however for ease of use at Church, I either use the NKJV or NIV. I have just checked my NKJV and found that it uses the terms homosexuals and sodomites instead of the KJV’s effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind.

The original Greek word used, which has been translated as effeminate or homosexual is malakos. This word appears in the original Greek on 4 occasions. On the other 3 occasions it has been translated as soft raiment of soft clothing. Malakos is used twice in Matt 11:8 and once in Luke 7: 25.

In Thayer’s Greek lexicon of the New Testament (which is linked numerically to Strong’s Concordance) It states, “Like the Latin mollis; metaphor and in a bad sense: effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness. I guess this is how it came to be translates as Male prostitute in the NIV.

I do of course agree with you that effeminate does have a totally different meaning today to what it had in 1611. Some other words have also changed in their meaning and this is one reason why I now tend to use the NKJV and NIV quite a bit.

On the subject of lesbianism being covered it the Bible, many commentators see this subject being covered in Romans 1: 26, with Romans 1: 27 commencing with the word “Likewise”, before going on to talk about the male perversions.

I do agree with you that all prostitution is bad whether male or female, it all comes under sexual immorality.

It has been very nice to have some sensible reasoned questions, rather than the torrent abuse that has been directed at me.

Just one question for Mr Matt. Why is it hypocrisy to quote scripture from the bible?

GodLovesYou - It's not hypocrisy to quote scripture, but it is hypocrisy to use verses out of context as a basis of an argument and then say that other verses should be used in context. The same could be said of accusing others of picking and choosing passages of the Bible to follow when that is precisely what most Christians do (including Jesus himself).

And if you read my posts, I had many sensible reasonable non-abusive questions.

In any case, believe what you want. Just don't try to enforce it as the last and final word regarding eveyone and what they should or should not believe. That is your personal decision and your passion to your faith is commendable. Keep in mind that there are other faiths in this world that are of equal value to those who choose to follow them. There is nothing on this earth that proves one religion is correct and all others are wrong. Back to the original subject, there were also many people who pay the television tax who wished to see Jerry Springer the Opera. Obviously, more than those who didn't, which is why it aired. The moral responsibility of airing the show lies in the BBC. The moral responsibility in viewing the show lies in the audience. Protesting the show will not change the fact that it was written, produced, and performed and will most likely do the same in the US. Should the show fail to be produced as a result of protests and demonstrations, what is truly accomplished? Does it erase the show from history? Does it nullify its existence? Quite the opposite, actually. Mostly what it will accomplish is quashing freedom of speech and freedom of religion and I am willing to bet the "victory" will tarnish rather than enhance the Christian reputation in the US.

And just to throw this in (not directed at anyone specifically), regarding gay marriage, there is nothing in the Bible that mentions the laws of the United States.

Jazzysuite - The verse regarding man laying with man as with a woman comes from one of the many Laws of Leviticus that Christians were taught to ignore except when applying them to homosexuals.

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I have to be honest. Knowing the type of things that have been on and Off-Broadway, there's a reason why this production isn't coming together quite well and it's not because people think it's offensive. I mean c'mon, it's 2005. There's nudity on and off broadway, there's been revivals of Jesus Christ Superstar AND most importantly, NYC and the artists that live there are among the most liberal minded people. No there's something else stopping this production that's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. I think someone might be afraid of the content, but I doubt that it's the general public. I've already heard many Americans say that Jerry Springer is a great show. Well this could be interesting to watch.
Godlovesyou, I think you sort of chose the wrong verse in the New testament to try to prove that homosexuality is wrong. The 1 Corinthians translation is a little bit sketchy to say the least. I've looked up the meanings of the Greek words and the Latin and they weren't exactly talking about homosexuality per se. People can sort of get a homosexual undertone out of it if they wish. Now it's harder to dispute Romans Chapter 1. I mean in context it sort of says homosexuality is wrong. It says something similar, but not quite as clear in Jude v.10. Now if someone can logically refute this and give a sound argument I would really Love it because I'm gay and a Christian and I kind of would welcome the chance. I like being gay, but there's this sort of moral dilemma and I can't just walk away from my faith.

Ok Mister Matt, like I said you've gotten all of your information from The Dateline expose. I've actually seen many of the people who interview the healed. They're interviewed by several doctors and are hence encouraged to go home and talk to their family physician. Do you know first hand that he helped less than 200 people? I mean as a christian myself my first thought is question the things that are attacking your faith first. Then if they are sound start questioning your faith. you've made no attempt to prove anything. There are just blanket accusations made by a news magazine. I'd like to point you to a quote from Pippin "now a newspaper wouldn't print anything that isn't true...would it?"

Jazzysuite - They were far more than blanket accusations. As I said, it was not the first time he was featured on Dateline. And they had the documentation to back it up. As I also said, Dateline was not my only source of info. Look him up. You will find numerous Christian organizations that denounce this man as well. Read my entire post before you start quoting Pippin to me. I did the research. Why don't you?

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Godlovesyou, as a Christian, I would think that you would be most interested in what Jesus said then trying to jump thorough hoops making translations form to your way of thinking or what you have been taught. I would think, first and foremost, you would accept the teachings of Jesus over a modern day minister. Jesus must have covered dozens, if not hundreds of subjects through his teachings, which have all been well documented in the four gospels. What did he say about homosexuality? I mean, if it is such a cut-and-dry sin, he must have mentioned it at least once when he was covering so many subjects. Did he? It seems to me that the things that mattered to him he spoke about on several occasions and was very clear about his stance – clear enough that translations have all pretty much agreed on what he had to say. And the bible in general is very clear and consistent in meanings through the various versions and translations on the *main* sins (the ten commandments, for instance). If Jesus didn't take any stance on it, and the only mentions that modern scholars can find in the bible as a whole is three or four scattered verses (out of thousands) that have to be *interpreted* to possibly mean homosexuality, or *might have intended to refer to* homosexuality in it's original text, it seems to me it never was considered important enough an issue to justify persecuting a group of people the way that many modern day Christians do in the name of the bible.

That is why so many churches have begun performing marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples. Because, after looking through the original texts, bible scholars have discovered that nowhere in thousands of pages does it clearly say that homosexuality is a sin or even wrong in of itself.

I hope that you reconsider your attitude toward your fellow human beings that may be homosexual in the spirit of Christ's teachings (love, compassion, non-judgment which are things he actually DID speak about on many occasions).

jesseeinstein: I am not lashing out I am merely stating what the vast majority of Christians believe and what the bible clearly teaches.

joniray: 99.999% of all the relationships we read about in the bible are heterosexual and any references to same sex relationships (and there are more than 3 or 4 - but 1 is enough) are in the context of it being a sin.

You ask what Jesus had to say on the subject. Try reading Mark 10: 6-8 which in the NKJV says, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh, so then they are no longer two, but one flesh".

This should be clear to all that marriage relationships involves a male and a female.

Having said that, I am not one of these people who just believe the words of Jesus as recorded in the bible, I believe the whole of the bible. Drunkenness and drug abuse are two of the major evils that blight our society today, but they too got no mention from Jesus other than one verse in Luke where drunkenness is mentioned.

If someone studies the bible and comes to the conclusion that, "Nowhere in thousands of pages does it clearly say that homosexuality is a sin or even wrong in of itself". I do not think that you should really call them a scholar.

There may be a tiny number of Gay Churches that carry out same-sex weddings; you have exaggerated a bit when you used the term, "So many Churches".

Jesus also spoke a lot about judgment, holiness and righteousness.

By the way, which modern day minister were you referring to, I had not previously mentioned accepting teachings from any such person.

Updated On: 3/18/05 at 11:21 AM

"Jesus also spoke a lot about judgment, holiness and righteousness."

Just as you, Godlovesyou" has judged every person that has a different opinion than you and reveled in your own self-righteousness.

I don't believe in god, but I don't go around condemning those who do not share my opinion. I do not judge people based on their beliefs in god, religion, sexuality, race or gender. I guess, according to you, it is perfectly ok and even reasonable to judge everyone based soley on your interpretation of the bible. I also have the guts to state my opinion instead of hiding behind random bible passages.

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Hello to all! I am new to this board.

Just had a few things to say to godlovesyou.

You need to take a look at another book besides the bible. I would suggest a psychology text book to start. Check out "Reaction Formation" it's a coping skill. It is typically used by a person so obsessed with something they do everything in their power to prove they are not interested in it.

Ex-gays, I don't think so, just confused gay people guilted into acting straight for a feeling of acceptance.

Alot of what you are relating (godlovesyou) seems to be something that you are just regurgitating. Be careful, once upon a time there was a christian group that left for South America, then one day they were told to drink some kool-aid by their leader. Was that God's will? or the behavior of lemmings?

As for the show, I have not seen it or heard much about it, but if you find it objectionable, don't watch it. In my country, my taxes go all the time to things I find objectionable and profane (war in Iraq).

godlovesyou, if you find this to be a personal attack it is. I am a proud out gay man and find your words personally offensive.