Musicals: Showing their age? Or timeless?

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 5:24pm

"best12bars...i think you should start a thread regarding how a musical ages. I found what you've wrote extremely intriguing as well as disheartening. To see how musicals have developed over the years (through interpretation, a changing society, new structures) and how the characters and material resonate differently (or not at all)." - thez914

Okay, thez914, first thanks for the compliment, and I'm taking you up on your suggestion that we have a dedicated thread about this! I personally haven't seen one yet (or at least recently)...

Which musicals do you think are standing the test of time? Which are aging or stale already? Let's try to keep these to shows originally on Broadway AT LEAST ten years ago. I don't think you can form any opinion on something "younger" than that.

And I have an even BIGGER challenge for y'all... Tell us WHY you think they've either survived or gone stale.

No, this isn't a homework assignment... I'm just curious, and so it seems are others.

I'll start with what I said on the other thread (below):

You know, an interesting thing is happening with The Music Man as I get older. When I was a kid, there were people around who grew up at the turn of the 20th century (yeah, the one BEFORE this last one). They understood what Meredith Wilson was satirizing with his affectionate yet pointed "valentine" to Small Town Nostalgia Americana. It was almost a sacred cow subject back then. The "great old days" were so much better and were given much reverence when talked about. His answer, in a way, was The Music Man. It was his "Oh, yeah?" retort. A fond trip back through Memory Lane for some, but with a clever and discerning raised eyebrow.

Today, people don't have a frame of reference. Actors and directors don't understand (or even care to learn about) what they're spoofing in this show. They just crank it out in "cartoon mode" and think people will laugh at these crazy characters on stage, or at least enjoy it because they know all the songs.

They're wrong... and they're ruining The Music Man for future audiences and performers.

I wonder if the same thing will happen to "How To Succeed" in another 20 years or so? Will people look back and say these characters are really annoying, instead of understanding that it's a spoof... and WHAT they're spoofing?

I would imagine so, and that's too bad for the posterity of shows like this.

I'll add this in for the "flip side" perspective on Music Man... people shouldn't have to go to the theatre and read up on the history of what it was like at the turn of the century, and how people regarded the idealized "small town way of life" in the 1950s when this show first opened. They should be able to sit down and watch a show without Cliffs Notes, in other words. I think directors can help modern audiences out a lot, by adding some pre-show visuals and era music. Maybe an old fashioned soda fountain set-up in the lobby, or just some old corset ads and "there's no place like home" -type artwork here and there. It might get them in the mood more and even start making fun of it a bit themselves. Then when the show starts, they're already in the mood for a satire.

Thinking more about this, it makes me wonder how some of our current shows will be perceived in 25-50 years... like Rent, for instance. Something that is so tied into its era. "A Chorus Line" is already showing signs of age, which never occurred to me at the time it burst onto the scene. First it was the music (with that Wa-Wa guitar from "Shaft"), but now it's the whole frame of mind and all the "modern" references throughout.

I think the ones that will age the worst are satires (where you have to know what their spoofing in order to fully get the joke)... or pieces like Rent, Angels in America, etc. which are tied into the "voice" of a generation or era. I'll bet 50 years from now, people will be scratching their heads wondering what the fuss was all about. Some of them already are.

[Marquise]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 5:38pm

i like your post best12bars.
~ i agree with alot of what you wrote.
some shows that were relevant when they debuted have with time lost their relevance.
~ they can be accepted if one goes in with the frame of mind that the show is a period piece
a chorus line was a show that in it's time took place in it's present. when the show was showing signs of age that was changed to indicate that the year was 1975.
~ some shows are timeless and are accepted *as is*

i want to go more into this with you but because i have to run i can't at this time.
but i am bookmarking this thread to come back to it because i would like to be a part of it.

thanks for starting this thread!

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 5:58pm

I love the thread Best 12.

I am going to see the Doyle-Sweeney again at the moment and have little time to comment as I would like.

I agree that audiences should not need to read Cliffs Notes to enjoy and understand a show, although I say why not, I would. The creative team needs to do major research though, not only in helping the audience understand, but in realizing the tone themselves.

I want to discuss the examples but, "There is no time!" *factory whistle*

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:00pm

The Rentheads will be up in arms, and Lord Marquise may stop talking to me, again (just for a while), but I have to say that RENT was already dated when it opened at the NYTheatre Workshop. It will only become more removed and out-of-sync. Why? Because nothing dates faster in a musical than a contemporary sound. Why does HAIR's music seem timeless because it was not, really, contempoary. The creators of HAIR knew how to write for the theatre. In 2025 there will continue to be productions of HAIR. RENT, on the otherhand, will be a footnote in the history of the American musical.

Musicals written to take place in the present day for example, HOW TO SUCCEEED, GUYS AND DOLLS, succeed over the decades because the world in which those musicals are based are created to be artificial. COMPANY is stylized and so can be presented in any decade of the future and would still work because the score is not based in the pop/rock sound of the early 1970s.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the topic.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:01pm

Marquise & smartpenguin78 - Thanks! I'm looking forward to reading your comments on this.

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:13pm

Your welcome, best12.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:14pm

Thanks, Jose'... The style of music can definitely date any musical, particularly if it's rooted solidly in any "pop" genre. The story of course is loosely based on La Boheme which was first produced in 1896... but Jon really tied it into the modern era of late '80s, early '90s (some of the lyric references like Thelma & Louise are early '90s).

I think there is a "heart" to Rent, that is the same "heart" to La Boheme, that will always be timeless. Youthful idealists, artists, self-centered, passionate, etc., all trying to survive and make sense of the world they are living in.

The "details" of Rent (the AIDS epidemic experienced from that era, the rock music and pop-culture-reference lyrics, the clothing, even the Village itself) will all become a time capsule, I'm sure... and as you say, some of it is already happening.

What I'm not sure of yet is if this will ultimately add to its charm, take away from its point, or just confuse people 50-odd years from now.

EDIT: Jose' - I think our posts are crossing.

2ND EDIT: I'll bet that "La Vie Boheme" will be completely lost on just about EVERYONE 50 years from now. Just ask the "new kids" today what they think of the lyrics to "Ain't Got No" (parts 1 & 2) from Hair. I'm sure it goes right over their heads, and it's the same kind of song as La Vie Boheme (parts 1 & 2).

Updated On: 12/3/05 at 06:14 PM

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:17pm

yes, best, it looks as if we're one minute apart.

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:26pm

Agree that the Boheme milieu is timeless. Puccini's intrepretation works across the ages because it remains accessible to everyone across soocio-economic and demographic lines, and even language barriers, remaining universal. RENT, unfortunately, appears to have written to appeal to a "generation," and like all those who came before, and will come after, what once appealed to a generation will cease to be attractive to that same generations because the components of that generation, people, change in themselves as they mature. Also, in the very near future theatre-goers who are the same age group as those who are attracted to RENT today will find RENT "old fashioned" in its sound, in its dress, and in its sense of hipness. In the 1920's what person in their teens and twenties wanted to dress and act like their parents did in the 1900s? Same is true for the twenty-somethings of the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s...it's called life.

Updated On: 12/3/05 at 06:26 PM

[kyle33nyc]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:29pm

I agree with many of the things best12bars wrote. However, I do not think that satire neccessarily ages faster than other shows. Chicago is satire, and it is just as if relevant today (if not more so) than in 1975. I think what you have to consider is what is being satirized. How to Succeed was based on a then popular self-help book. Music Man is concerned with a specific era and lifestyle. Chicago, on the other hand, deals with a much more universal theme. The ends people will go to to achieve fame, and how the larger population can trivialize and even embrace violence, are much more complicated and enduring themes. Thus, Chicago communicates (in my humble opinion) more easily with modern audiences. Well, I also happen to think it is better written show than Music Man and How to Succeed...

The other issue I was going to bring up is that I don't think it is so easy as setting up a soda fountain or showing period photos to get an audience prepped for satire. Yes, these are good ideas for setting the mood of the piece, but modern audiences are not neccessarilly ready to digest complicated material no matter how much the director does. I don't know what the answer is, if there even is one, but I think directors of older shows are in a bind. The younger generation of theatergoers do not have the experience of sitting through lengthy, dialogue-heavy shows, nor do they have the cultural impetus to see shows to keep up with other sophisticated New Yorkers (an unhealthy trend, for sure, but one that I wish woud come back in vogue to keep the art form alive and healthy). These audience members have been raised in a very different culture, where media images come fast and furious. There may be many young folks who LOVE theater, but I wonder what percentage will enjoy A Touch of the Poet and Seascape as much as Wicked and Mamma Mia?

OK, I'm on a soap box! Thanks for starting an interesting thread. Imagine, intellectual conversations about theater!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:33pm

Here's my take:

Period--shouldn't be a factor. Whether we produce a Greek play, a Shakespeare play, a 30s musical written in the 30s, or a 30s musical written in 2005, universality is what matters.

When one produces a play these are the factors you have to take into account:

--the worldview of the play's setting
--the worldview it was written in
--the worldview you are producing this play
--MAYBE, the worldview the play was first produced, if diff than when written

And, you try to find the universality that connects these three.

The Music Man: deception/con artist, love, censorship, trying to find a place to belong, dealing with outsiders, etc

How To Succeed In Business...: trying to get ahead in life, office politics, love, putting love behind work, accepting status quo or taking risks, etc.

Oklahoma!: settling down or staying single and carefree, jealousy, love, class, embarking on a new era in history, dealing with others who differ from you, etc.

West Side Story/R&J: do I even need to go there with this one? lol

Rent: I think the only things that could limit Rent or Hair or A Chorus Line is having specific references in the lyric and dialogue. That's been the main thing I have always heard. Certainly, Hair can resonate now as we have an unpopular war and major culture clashes? Surely, A Chorus Line will always resonate as a story of people trying to make their dreams come true. Rent deals with love and acceptance and various issues and there has been plenty said on the meaning of all this in other threads.

Pop music: This is questionable. First off, I don't think you are the best judge of Rent, Jose--am I wrong?
Musicals used to be the pop music of the day. We've strayed from staying in touch with pop music for the most part. I don't think we will come to a consensus about how well or not pop music will age. I do think that rock/pop/hip hop/rap musicals are a direction musicals can and should go. And what really is the difference between the music stylings of Mamma Mia!, Hairspray, Jersey Boys, Rent, etc.? It's all "pastiche" if you think about it.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:40pm

Jose' --- I agree. It's interesting that the basic story of La Boheme is timeless, in and of itself. Young people always venture out on their own thinking they can change the world. They have a romantic, passionate view of it and themselves. They believe strongly they can make a difference and make it a better place, through art or other chosen vocations. That's the heart of this universal story and its broad appeal.

But the downside to this story is it's about young idealists living and surviving "in the moment" of their given world, which it needs to be to make sense. I think it will probably always "date" very quickly.

We will likely see this very same La Boheme story resurfacing again and again... always burning bright for its own moment in time... then dying out as quickly as the time period and people it represents.

Maybe that's part of the "romance" of it. It's meant to.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 6:57pm

Thanks to all for giving this a lot of thought! I'm loving these responses...

Here are my thoughts on "period" and "satire." (And then I'll shut up and let others type for a while. Plus I need to stop and think more about what you've said!)

Chicago is a great show to talk about here. I don't think it's dated in the least. The show was written in 1975, but isn't about 1975. It takes place in the '20s, but really isn't about the '20s at all. You don't have to know much (if anything) about that era to enjoy this show. Its universal themes (fame and fortune at all costs, media frenzies, crimes of the centuries, etc.) are not directly tied into the '20s. And while it's definitely satirical... it's satirizing its own universal themes, not the 1920s era specifically. (I don't think it will kill the opening number's impact if the audience doesn't know who "Lucky Lindy" is in the lyrics.)

EDIT: But take a show like "Of Thee I Sing," a political satire that was the first musical to win a Pulitzer Prize for drama, and nobody produces it today. The satire was all about the politics and specific politicians of the day. No one would get it, so the show comes off as a mildly interesting entertainment, instead of a fall-down funny, brilliant take on the modern world.

I personally agree, jerby, about a music style itself not killing a show entirely. It definitely dates a show, even with just its orchestrations, but (for me at least) never in a "permanently damaging" way. But "Rent" is way too early to tell. Many people are still listening to this kind of music today. But play "Show Boat" for them, with its story lines that can still stir up controversy to this very day, and some people cringe at its "old fashioned" music and lyrics. They can't even get past it enough to see how amazingly powerful that story is.

Updated On: 12/3/05 at 06:57 PM

[Enjolras77]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:00pm

You may even find some shows that work BETTER as period pieces. Take Chess for example. It is probably more popular in this country today than it ever was when it opened on Broadway. At the time it opened on Broadway in 1988 the Cold War was waning (the Berlin Wall would fall just a little over a year later) and did not grip America as much as in earlier times. The theme of a US vs. Russia Chess match with political complications was already a bit passe--as was the ABBA influenced pop score. However, now the piece would work well as a period piece showcasing the Cold War competition between the USA and USSR. Also with the resurgence of interest in ABBA's music thanks to Mamma Mia the songs almost work as a period piece themselves.

Other shows that appear a bit dated and would probably have to done as period pieces are Bells Are Ringing and the oft discussed Promises, Promises. I ADORE both shows, but have to agree that a lot of the themes and settings are a bit foreign to modern audiences. In Bells, Switchboard answering services are a thing of the past and the entire "Drop that Name" sequence would be totally lost on younger audiences because they would probably have no idea who most of those celebrities are. In Promises, alot of the storyline smacks of sexism, plus the Bacharach score, although as wonderul as it is, is still anchored in the late 60's.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:02pm

best: And that's a shame (regarding Show Boat), but people react to Shakespeare that way.

So, we find ways to make Shakespeare reach across from the stage into the audience.

Updated On: 12/3/05 at 07:02 PM

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:07pm

Pop music: This is questionable. First off, I don't think you are the best judge of Rent, Jose--am I wrong?

Excuse me, jrb, that is rather an arrogant statement, if not downright discriminatory.

I don't believe you, nor anyone else, is in any position to determine who might be "best," or qualified, to judge the elements or merits of any musical.

Thank you.
Updated On: 12/3/05 at 07:07 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:08pm

Oh, and orchestrations are redone for most every revival. I think Webber's big mistake is that he refuses to completely update the orchestrations for shows like Jesus Christ Superstar and Evita. That's the key (I think) to making any score relate to a modern audience better.

[kyle33nyc]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:08pm

I think Show Boat is a great show to consider. It really is timeless, much like Chicago. While it must be done in a certain period, the themes are universal and enduring. And like Chicago, it has a wonderful score and book that are tighly integrated. I really do think Hammerstein is underrated in how much he revolutionalized musical theater with this piece.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:10pm

And Jose, how much pop music DO you enjoy? That's my question. I'm not negating your right to your opinion of Rent. I'm only saying what I would say to someone who hates opera--is that person's negative opinion of La Traviata really valuable to me? They have a right to hate La Traviata, but if the piece never had a chance to begin with...

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:29pm

Ah, but at one time I listened to pop music daily.

And I've listend to, and been exposed to, show music for over 50 years, including show music written before my own time.

If someone chooses to use the pop idiom to write for the stage the work should be assessed by the standards of the stage, and not the standards of pop song writing which are almost nonexistent. Even by pop standards the RENT score is dated, and the show itself will suffer the same fate.

Granted there's an audience for RENT now, however it mostly comprised of individuals who have little to no knowledge or experience with musical theatre. It would be interesting study to learn what percentage of that audience actually graduates to other musical theatre versus those who stagnate with RENT. And that's the crux of RENT for me. I leave that to a student of the future.

Before you retort, please know that I'm not about to continue discussing RENT further. It's my opinion that it's dated, and it's your opinion that it's timeless. We agree to disagree.

I'd rather discuss SHOW BOAT, OKLAHOMA, GYPSY, CABIN IN THE SKY, LADY IN THE DARK, ONE TOUCH OF VENUS, CAROUSEL, FORUM, AS THOUSANDS CHEER, THE MUSIC MAN, MAN OF LA MANCHA, A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN, HOUSE OF FLOWERS, THE APPLE TREE, THE GOLDEN APPLE, STOP THE WORLD, THE KING AND I, ON YOUR TOWN, THE THREEPENNY OPERA, PORGY AND BESS, ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, KISS ME KATE, HAIR, HELLO, DOLLY!, THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, PIPPIN, CALL ME MADAM, ON A CLEAR DAY, BLOOMER GIRL, MACK AND MABLE, A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, ON THE TOWN, and some others as well, including SWEENEY TODD, CAROLINE, OR CHANGE, and OF THEE I SING.





Updated On: 12/3/05 at 07:29 PM

[grizzabella]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:32pm

I'm glad you enjoyed my Music Man thoughts on the other thread, Best12bars.
On the topic of dated musicals, I tend to agree that universality is the key to whether a musical ages well or not. There are shows written in a very specific time that I doubt will be more than curious, period pieces in 50 years. I think Avenue Q might fall into this category. I'm not sure Spamalot will age well either. Unless you understand its source-material, a lot may be lost on you.
I've enjoyed everyone's discussion on "Hair." When it first appeared, it was cutting-edge, revolutionary (in more ways than one) and steeped in late '60's-early '70's relevance. Then, for a number of years, it virtually disappeared from the theatrical consciousness because America had moved on. Now, as the country is again divided over policies and is in an unpopular war, it is suddenly of interest again. I completely agree with Jose. It's creators knew how to write for the theatre. It isn't a rock concert.
I think Rent may actually have a shelf-life, because it, too is based on universal themes, albeit in already somewhat dated trappings. As a sidebar, I'm amazed at the number of young people (and older ones, too) who don't realize that the core story of Rent is a take on Puccini's La Boheme! Regardless, this opera is still popular for a reason - at least among people who enjoy operatic singing. It speaks to themes that occur in every generation. In 50 years, though the story's details will likely be dated,(they already are) the story will not be. There will still be young people full of hope, looking to grow and love and change the world. (At least, I hope there will be. I'd hate to think that the only option they'll see is a suicide bomb.) So, I think Rent might make it.
As a whole, I think Jerry Herman's work will probably last, even a show like La Cage Aux Folles. Again, because of the universality of the themes, even though it's '80's "shock value" is passe.
A thought has just occured to me. I think what makes a show "timeless" is not its political or cultural setting, but its characters. If they are recognizable to the audience as human beings that the audience can care about, the piece will still have a way to connect to an audience. That's way we can still be moved by the plays we call "Classics." They were new once, and their characters spoke to audiences about themes and emotions that never really change.
My apologies for long-windedness. I just read the preview and saw how long this is.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:35pm

No, let's do discuss pop/rock musicals. What is your opinion of

Tommy
Hedwig and the Angry Inch
Jesus Christ Superstar
Chess
Zanna Don't
Avenue Q (which is rather pop)
Hairspray (60s pop)
Hair

I want to know if any pop/rock musical is to your liking.

Updated On: 12/3/05 at 07:35 PM

[sweeneyfan]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:37pm

Good points, all. Especially the one about RENT being dated before it opened. It was. The show still took place int the past of Jonathan Larson, which is why the choice to give the film version an actual date of 1989 makes sense. in fact, I've read several interviews with the cast that saiod that's JL's intent to start with. Therefore, if that is true RENT was dated on purpose.

I also agree with the saying about H2$ and Guys and Dolls being timeless because even though they were written "as they were happening" they were created in fantasy worlds. Perhaps that's the biggest point missed here. Theatre IS a fantasy world. What makes a musical timeless or anything for that matter isn't necessarily the content, but the universality of the work.

A Chorus Line: I don't think many of you were alive when that opened and even some of you were likely born after it closed. After the first season (maybe after 2)it was on Broadway, the Playbill was changed from saying "The Time: Present" to "The Time: 1975", and before that, the dates of birth of the characters were added to to keep them the same age. However, the one major criticism AGAINST the show in 1975 was that while the show took place then (at time of opening) the music was old-fashioned Broadway. A "Shaft"-style guitar sound only places it in the 70's. The reason A Chorus Line succeeded and will again is its universality. You don't need to be a Broadway dancer to relate to it anymore than you need to be an AIDS infected crack whore to relate to Mimi in RENT, right?

I know we weren't going to talk about shows youinger than 9 or 10 years, but Hairspray is a good example of something that will age well. It is written in THE STYLE OF the time period in which it takes place, and is a complete fantasy world. I live in Baltimore, and found some things HILARIOUS that no one around me even chuckled at (How many of you understand why it's funny that Edna wears terry cloth open toe slippers and a house dress, or why it is funny (and sad) that Tracey hopes one day to attend Essex Community College?) and yet I'll bet lots of people not from Baltimore loved it. Why? Because it is universal. Everr been the underdog? Ever been judged without being known? Ever felt the pangs of any kind of prejudice (not just racial)?

Hair, by the way, was music of its time. Aquarius and several other songs from the show were top 20 songs.

[TheReebster]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:57pm

I just want to start off by saying that I am absolutely NOT an authority on musicals, I just like them.

Rent - although eventually may be dated, is not yet. Most of the social (not the personal one's of the characters) problems still exist in today's society. For example, the AIDS crisis is still prevelant, and it would be an insult to all of the people suffering from AIDS and HIV to say that this is no longer a problem. Drug addiction is also something that many people deal with. Finally, the personal problems faced by the characters are purely human and until there is somesort of cure for emotional issues, they will always remain undated.

Although I do agree when people say that the actual music itself oneday may be dated to future audiences.

Sorry if this is totally unelloquent and misinformed, it's based purely on opinions.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 12/3/05 at 7:58pm

FYI -- it was actually around 1980 (5 years into the run) that the Playbill of A Chorus Line was changed to read 1975.