* New Poll Topic Up! * - Off Broadway and the TONYs

[Craig]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 1:48pm

Inspired by the recent article

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1948&ncid=2021&e=1&u=/variety/20040530/va_th_ne/tony_talk_turns_again_to_including_off

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1948&ncid=2021&e=1&u=/variety/20040530/va_th_ne/tony_talk_turns_again_to_including_off>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1948&ncid=2021&e=1&u=/variety/20040530/va_th_ne/tony_talk_turns_again_to_including_off

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 2:18am

Comments in the poll that really bothered me:

"Broadway should always be considered the mecca."
"Granted, Broadway is usually going to be of better caliber"
"They can eventually get to Broadway and then they can be included."
"if its a good enough show, it will move to broadway and sweep at the tonys"

Folks, the difference between Broadway and Off-Broadway may indeed include budgets, contracts, etc. But the main difference is the size of the theatre. Not all shows belong in a 1400 seat theatre. Many Off-Broadway shows have turned down the chance to transfer to Broadway because the intimacy of a smaller house is vital to the play or musical. Much of the quality of work on Off-Broadway is just as good as Broadway. Quite frankly, some of the regional theatres in this country are better than Broadway--so let's not be too quick to hold that the best theatre is Broadway. As many of you know, Broadway is more often bad than good.

"off-broadway is kinda dying"

Please elaborate on this one. Because with the 100s of Off-Broadway productions every year and the level of work being produced by these theatres, I think it is rather incorrect to consider Off-Broadway as dying.

[CapnHook]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 12:19pm

You go, jrb!

Off-Broadway dying?? It doesn't even make sense to me.

Lots of shows have come off-Broadway to go Broadway. Some even from off-off Broadway. I'll use URINETOWN as an example. It was basically the same show, but it improved because the budget got a little higher. They improved costumes and sets, but the show typically stayed the same, and it went on to be snubbed the Tony (although THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE was great, URINETOWN was so much better, IMHO).

Back to the debate, I believe the Tonys should include off-Broadway productions in seperate catagories. The thing is, if a show moves from off-Broadway to Broadway, can it be nominated for both?

I'm very mixed on this idea.

[brdwaybaby17]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 12:36pm

I suppose, I suppose... but there is something about the Tonys just being Broadway... that's how it has always been. Yes, god forbid we should change, it's just natural now. But, if they did include Off-Broadway in the Tonys, they should have their own awards, because the budget of Broadway is larger they have a better chance of making things more, shall we say, "show offy", and winning the awards. But, after you add Off-Broadway, can't you say, oh we want off-off-Broadway, then maybe off-off-off Broadway. Where does it stop?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 3:04pm

As a practical matter, the Tonys could never include off-Broadway nominees in every category. It works for the Drama Desks and the OCC Awards because the pool of voters is a relatively small number of critics (a few dozen in total) who because of their jobs not only see every Broadway show, but also the vast majority of off-Broadway not-for-profit and commercial productions during the course of the year (similarly the Obies are voted on by just 4 or 5 hearty folks who basically see every off- and off-off- play during the course of the year -- it basically means they go to a play every night for 12 months). Only critics (and a handful of theatre fanatics who post here and over at ATC) see every show done over the course of a year by The Public, Playwrights, MTC, Lincoln Center, BAM, the Vineyard, the Atlantic, NYTW, Irish Rep, Second Stage, Signature, PS122, et al, plus all the for-profit productions that happen at Union Square, the Century, the Little Shubert, the Variety, the Greenwich House, the Cherry Lane, Minetta Lane, Blue Heron, etc, etc,.......... There is NO WAY to get 725+ Tony voters into every one of those shows (it's hard enough to get them to see just the two dozen or so Tony nominated Broadway productions). And they would have to go constantly throughout the course of the year and not wait until the nominations are announced because most of these shows are limited engagements and would be closed by the time the nominations came out in May (as is the case with the majority of the Drama Desk and OCC nominees every year). Add to that the cost to the producers of some of these smaller shows having to provide a pair of comps to over 700 people, and it's not only financially unworkable (the cost of 1400+ free tickets is more than the profit on most of these shows), but a logistical nightmare.

I suppose the Tonys could come up with a single "Best Off-Broadway Production" award and have any of the 700 who wish to vote for the that category certify that they have seen all 4 or 5 or whatever nominations (like the Oscars do for the best documentary and short film categories -- voters have to swear they've seen all the nominees). Not sure what the point of it would be, but they could if they wanted to.

As for the notion of off-Broadway dying, it strikes me that Broadway is in heck of a lot more trouble than off-Broadway or regional theatre. Broadway prices have gotten completely out of control -- new musicals cost $12 - 14 million+ and can run years without recouping, union demands are escalating (with a possible strike on the horizon), the top price is $101 and will likely be going up from there very shortly, making it more and more difficult to attract new, young audiences to Broadway and keep the older, upper-middle class audience it's traditionally had. The nonmusical is all but dead on Broadway, with only a revival of "A Raisin In The Sun" starring a famous rap mogul qualifying as a hit -- this past season not even the likes of Frank Langella, John Lithgow, Ellen Burstyn, Jimmy Smits, Danny Glover, Richard Dreyfuss, or Alfre Woodard were enough to keep a straight play from flopping. As for the musicals, two of the four Tony nominees for Best Musical came from off-Broadway -- Avenue Q and Caroline of Change.

Off-Broadway is still a place where creative artists can experiment and take chances and create plays and musicals that are challenging, nonderivative and not designed to appeal only to the lowest common denominator. Broadway is in the business of creating big entertainments for tourists, while off-Broadway is actually interested in doing good theatre and that has been the case for decades. Generally speaking, it's Broadway that has the inferior product, not Off-. Plays like Well and Bug and Intimate Apparel and Blackbird and Thrill Me and Moonlight Room and Bridge & Tunnel and The Long Christmas Ride Home and Normal Heart and The Beard of Avon and The First Lady Suite and Finians Rainbow (along with Q, Caroline, I Am My Own Wife and Frozen which moved from off-Broadway to Broadway) were easily superior to any of the commercial entertainments created specifically for Broadway this season (and let's not forget that "Assassins" and "Rent" are also products of the not-for-profit off-Broadway world and would not exist without the non-commercial workshop process). When a play opens cold on Broadway without first going through the not-for-profit process in NY, bad things tend to happen -- like "Prymate."

Broadway can have and keep the Tonys for whatever they're worth -- a big three hour commercial for a few decent shows and a whole bunch of mediocre ones that few people outside NY and a couple of large cities even bother to watch anymore -- heck it rarely ranks in the top 4 or 5 ratings-wise even in the NY market (this year the Tonys are up against Game One of the NBA Finals and the season finale of The Sopranos, among other things). If Broadway continues to trot out and celebrate this kind of overpriced mediocrity every year (and have the nerve to charge $100 a seat for it), the Tonys will continue to become more and more irrelevant to the vast majority of people -- even people like me who love and attend a lot of theatre. If you want to see the true excellence of NY theatre, you won't see it on CBS Sunday night -- it's in the 300- and 200- and 50- seat theatres of off- and off-off-Broadway -- many of which are thriving these days. And frankly, Broadway needs them a lot more than they need Broadway or the Tonys.

Updated On: 6/2/04 at 03:04 PM

[Zola Q. LaPlaya]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 3:11pm

JRB, you're getting too smart, you cutie-pie.

And, Margo, your analysis is right on. I would only add that last season also enjoyed only one significant non-musical: Take Me Out.

And, we haven't even turned to the latest contract negotiations....

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 6/1/04 at 11:28pm

Brilliant, Margo--absolutely brilliant! :)

Thanks, Zola!

[Dawg]

Posted: 6/2/04 at 11:35am

Margo- you are so well-spoken. I am assuming you work in the industry as I don't know many fans who would know as much concise information about the industry as you do. Either way, Broadwayworld should be happy to have such intelligent discussion of such important topics.