#101
Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:49pm
I'm curious to what you disagree with, Mattio? If it's my middle paragraph, than I think you might need to think this over. 
Overrated Classic Shows — Page 5
#102
Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:50pm
Mattio, I'm not crazy about OKLAHOMA either. For me, it's the Americana aspect of the piece. OKLAHOMA resonated with so many people when it premiered, and it continues to do so to this day. I'm just uncomfortable with the overt patriotism of the "we know we belong to the land, and the land we belong to is grand" philosophy. I'm a city boy at heart, and the "bright golden haze on the meadow" holds little attraction for me.
The isolationist, patriotic aspects are really why OKLAHOMA is such a success. It opened right after WWII, when Americans were searching for a reason to justify the horrible atrocities that were going on the world, and they needed to latch on to something distinctly American, something that offered them hope. OKLAHOMA fit the bill perfectly.
I'm much more interested in diversity than assimilation: I want to know how the other hundred people who just got off of the train deal with each other, instead of listening to a small town community saying "We're OK!" because they derive comfort from the act of agreement.
The isolationist, patriotic aspects are really why OKLAHOMA is such a success. It opened right after WWII, when Americans were searching for a reason to justify the horrible atrocities that were going on the world, and they needed to latch on to something distinctly American, something that offered them hope. OKLAHOMA fit the bill perfectly.
I'm much more interested in diversity than assimilation: I want to know how the other hundred people who just got off of the train deal with each other, instead of listening to a small town community saying "We're OK!" because they derive comfort from the act of agreement.
#103
Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:53pm
Veuve, it's also because Oklahoma! is given credit for its affect on musical theatre--songs that progress the plot, the dream ballet, a musical that opens with a woman churning butter instead of a big chorus number, etc. It's the granddaddy of musical theatre and possesses a sublime score.
#104
Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:56pm
Yes, JRB, I disagree with the middle paragraph. I don't understand how it's okay to dislike a classic musical but not okay to bash any classic musicals. Care to explain?
#105
Posted: 1/5/05 at 12:51am
I've never lived in any place less populated than suburbia, but I understand what it is to be attached to land, or at least a certain kind of land. Maybe it's the fact that I'm an immigrant that made me conscious of it; I don't know. Anyway, if there's any philosophy I take out of Oklahoma!, it's: "I don't say I'm no better/ than anybody else/ But I'll be damned if I ain't just as good." :)
#106
Posted: 1/5/05 at 1:31am
I think what might help is if the title of the thread was changed. A valid arguement is made for discussing the opinions of certain pieces, but to label them 'over-rated' is to invite defensiveness and partisan thinking. Mr. Roxy, please?
Personal note - Spider, you and I are destined to have a bit of a private conversation concerning the merits of My Fair Lady's finale
Personal note - Spider, you and I are destined to have a bit of a private conversation concerning the merits of My Fair Lady's finale
#107
Posted: 1/5/05 at 1:37am
I really wouldn't say that any classic musicals are "over rated." YES there are a few that just get under my skin and make me want to throw up, but they're not over rated. "classic" musicals are what got us to where we are today.
The Musica Man is actually one of my favorite shows, mainly because i live very close to Rock Island and just the fact that my home town has a song named after it...slightly...is super cool. It's a very cute show where the guy gets the girl and the girl stops being such a shrew.
Fiddler has such amazing music and the story it very nice.
Oklahoma, while not my favorite, was slightly ground breaking.
All these shows that people are listing are all great in their own way and the reason they are classics is because of the impact they've had on the Musical Theatre. I really don't feel that any classic can be called over rated. If you wanna see overrated look at some of the shows on broadway now.
The Musica Man is actually one of my favorite shows, mainly because i live very close to Rock Island and just the fact that my home town has a song named after it...slightly...is super cool. It's a very cute show where the guy gets the girl and the girl stops being such a shrew.
Fiddler has such amazing music and the story it very nice.
Oklahoma, while not my favorite, was slightly ground breaking.
All these shows that people are listing are all great in their own way and the reason they are classics is because of the impact they've had on the Musical Theatre. I really don't feel that any classic can be called over rated. If you wanna see overrated look at some of the shows on broadway now.
#108
Posted: 1/5/05 at 1:40am
Plum, thanks for illuminating your feelings. As we both know, our reactions to theatre are deeply personal. For me, it's really interesting to know why people feel the way they do about various musicals. And I find it important to examine why I personally feel the way I do.
I love examining the practical elements of a show: the book, the score, the lyrics. But whether one likes OKLAHOMA, GUYS AND DOLLS, THE MUSIC MAN, or WEST SIDE STORY, or one doesn't, it's impossible to argue them on their artistic merits. Those are a given.
This thread (which I suspect I've spent way too much time in today) initially intrigued me: Why do I dislike OKLAHOMA and THE MUSIC MAN? Certainly not because I think they're "overrated." But why?
I'm always fascinated by the why.
I love examining the practical elements of a show: the book, the score, the lyrics. But whether one likes OKLAHOMA, GUYS AND DOLLS, THE MUSIC MAN, or WEST SIDE STORY, or one doesn't, it's impossible to argue them on their artistic merits. Those are a given.
This thread (which I suspect I've spent way too much time in today) initially intrigued me: Why do I dislike OKLAHOMA and THE MUSIC MAN? Certainly not because I think they're "overrated." But why?
I'm always fascinated by the why.
#109
Posted: 1/5/05 at 1:42am
"I'm always fascinated by the why."
If more people felt this way, then intelligent, responsible, NON-DEFENSIVE conversation might be possible.
If more people felt this way, then intelligent, responsible, NON-DEFENSIVE conversation might be possible.
#110
Posted: 1/5/05 at 2:20am
While this may not be a "classic" yet, I have no doubt it will be. "The Producers"--I'm sorry, it was totally blown of proportion. It tries way too hard. Even though its one of the most successful shows, it just didn't do it for me.
#111
Posted: 1/5/05 at 2:23am
Mattio, that difference in particular relates to the same difference between a constructive review of a show and just being nasty and trashing it without any real thought to the matter--and that it comes off all the more ignorant when aimed at a solid classic.
But, the real difference I am trying to get at is that while you are free to like and dislike any show, you should be aware (and ultimately respectful) of what are the classics--what is part of the cannon.
It's why a theatre student bothers to take a dramatic literature class or a musical theatre history class of some kind--to know and respect the evolution and that which are considered to be the great works of theatre. And, if we know what the greats are--we can strive to be better audiences and artisans, particularly the writers.
But, the real difference I am trying to get at is that while you are free to like and dislike any show, you should be aware (and ultimately respectful) of what are the classics--what is part of the cannon.
It's why a theatre student bothers to take a dramatic literature class or a musical theatre history class of some kind--to know and respect the evolution and that which are considered to be the great works of theatre. And, if we know what the greats are--we can strive to be better audiences and artisans, particularly the writers.
Updated On: 1/5/05 at 02:23 AM
#112
Posted: 1/5/05 at 8:14am
rowsend: "The Music Man" on the other hand.....Plot ends with a thud....after some stupid random song that freezes the plot called something like "Patoochie"..... The rousing "76 Trombones" finale leaves you forgetting this insipid and very contrived show....."The Music Man "is why musical haters hate musicals!
Plot ends with a thud? Huh? It seems you are simply not that familiar with the show. The plot ends with the love story neatly tied up upon the arrival of the band instruments. The boys perform and the parents are all proud of their children. The reprisal of 76 Trombones announces the arrival of the uniforms and is the celebratory capper to the show just like the reprisal of the song Oklahoma. The story is based on the classic The Rainmaker (of which 110 in the Shade is also based) and the book is perfectly constructed. The score is an amazing achievement of period pastiche. The "stupid random song" is called Shipoopi and like most musicals of the period, provided a big dance production number in the second act that both feaures the choreographer as well as lightens the second act tension while staying within the framework of the story like The Farmer and the Cowman, June is Bustin' Out All Over, or The Lusty Month of May. It was a standard musical comedy number that was common in that period of musical theatre. I can understand if you've seen a poor production of the show, but a poor production does not mean the show is poorly written or constructed.
Plot ends with a thud? Huh? It seems you are simply not that familiar with the show. The plot ends with the love story neatly tied up upon the arrival of the band instruments. The boys perform and the parents are all proud of their children. The reprisal of 76 Trombones announces the arrival of the uniforms and is the celebratory capper to the show just like the reprisal of the song Oklahoma. The story is based on the classic The Rainmaker (of which 110 in the Shade is also based) and the book is perfectly constructed. The score is an amazing achievement of period pastiche. The "stupid random song" is called Shipoopi and like most musicals of the period, provided a big dance production number in the second act that both feaures the choreographer as well as lightens the second act tension while staying within the framework of the story like The Farmer and the Cowman, June is Bustin' Out All Over, or The Lusty Month of May. It was a standard musical comedy number that was common in that period of musical theatre. I can understand if you've seen a poor production of the show, but a poor production does not mean the show is poorly written or constructed.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#113
Posted: 1/5/05 at 12:03pm
#114
Posted: 1/5/05 at 2:27pm
AWWWW!! Thanks jrb! I miss them sooooooo much!!
You know, we're both on the "A-List". I still need to get him to sign a copy of his book for me.
You know, we're both on the "A-List". I still need to get him to sign a copy of his book for me.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#115
Posted: 1/5/05 at 2:35pm
ok, i know this is way late, and stopped reading posts because my ulcer was growing...
unmasked, you said "My Fair Lady (I didn't even finish watching the movie)"
Are you F***** kidding me? We are talking about the shows and their respective scores, not a movie - where things are changed, usually for the worse...
unmasked, you said "My Fair Lady (I didn't even finish watching the movie)"
Are you F***** kidding me? We are talking about the shows and their respective scores, not a movie - where things are changed, usually for the worse...
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