PIRATE QUEEN possible fix

[queenbee2]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 12:02pm

It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement that one of the big issues with Pirate Queen is the lack of a strong 2nd act climax. I thought about this a lot and discussed with a friend who also saw the show. I have an idea!

DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT ANY PLOT POINTS GIVEN AWAY!

I felt, when watching the show that the most dramatic thing to happen during the 2nd act in terms of tension, acting, staging and even music was the scene where Donal interrupts his sons Christening, brings in the English soldiers and fights with Tiernan to the death. This scene was captivating to look at, well performed by all involved, and some of the most dramatic music I've heard from B & S.

Would it be possible to move this event later in the show?

If this is indeed a love story about Grace and Tiernan wanting to be together, but unable to do so, why get rid of the man who stands between them so early in the act. It wasn't until reflecting on seeing the show twice that I realized when I started to loose some interest, and where the tension seemed to dissipate for me, was after Tiernan kills Donal. It seems like the show tries to do a 180 after this moment and get us to emotionally invest in the relationship between the Queen of England and Grace, but in reality, I was much more involved in the love triangle part of the story. This could be the heart of the issues with the show. Which stories are priorities to keep the dramatic tension?

For those who have seen the show, do you agree? And would it be possible to move things around so this dramatic/climatic moment happens closer to the end of the piece? I for one felt the air started to fall out of the balloon once the man standing between the two lovers was dead.

Chorus Line Thursday!

-qb

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 12:31pm

MORE SPOILERS below:

Very interesting idea. I hadn't thought of it, but I agree that in terms of music and drama this scene is one of the highlights of the show. Moving it later, and perhaps tying Donal in further with the British would give some desperately needed focus to the story. I'm amazed at how many posters have said that they just didn't find the story involving. Here are a few other thoughts along the same lines:

Clarify just what it is these "pirates" do. All we need is one line about this, something like "The English may call us Pirates because we fight for our Irish land, but we're actually Irish heroes, and isn't that just grand?" (It wouldn't be the worst lyric in the show!)

Give us a little more information about the conflict between the Brits and the Irish. So far all I can determine is that the English have somehow forced the Irish to wear rags.

Create some sort of motivation for Elizabeth to want to negotiate with Grace. Perhaps the ongoing conflict with the Irish is diverting her resources from other conquests? "I can't invade Spain, because the Irish are such a pain" (Y'all can go ahead and use these lyrics, really!)

[Katisha]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 12:45pm

Well, that certainly couldn't hurt. But this work needs a lot more than a big finish. It needs a whole new libretto which actually works *with* the music and is more than a basic commentary on the action (some metre and originality would be nice too). And the music is in desperate need of some hooks. (Wouldn't you think a show about pirates would have some hooks?)

I also thought the first act tried a bit too desperately to cram in Grania's whole early life, a song per event. The result was that I felt rushed through a chronology - I knew what Grania had done, but I didn't have a reason to like her.

I wondered if the Grania/Elizabeth thing was supposed to be a new take on female relationships, capitalising on "Wicked". If so I think it didn't do a good job. The messages were really seventies ("Women are as good as men! Really! But men oppress us, and also they drink too much and stay out late and sleep around!"), and then really depressingly anti-feminist ("The real woman is not the one with power, it's the one with a family!"). That message sucks.

So yeah, a great second act closer would improve it, but I don't think it will save it.

[wishinguweresomehow]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 2:34pm

I dont think that the ElizabethGrania relationship was supposed to be capitalizing on 'Wicked'. Though they both were trying to prove that women had just as much right to 'rule' then guys. Predominantly, the real ElizabethGrania conflict remained a conflict. Elizabeth only met with Grania for her own good...to trick her into thinking that she was willing to make peace with Grania and her fleet. After several months it picked up again. However, I do agree that there does need to be some more clarity revolving the two of them, as well as a better pace in the second act. I especially agree with the idea of moving the Donal-Tiernan fight scene to the end.

:)

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 3:06pm

Of course PQ is not trying to capitalize on Wicked. If they were doing that they would have the act 1 curtain look like a map, they'd build all sorts of elaborate sets around and above the stage and they'd have a crucial part of the the climax of the story take place behind a screen in shadows. That settles that. (Could it be that the term "Pirate" refers to pirating concepts from other shows?)

As I think about the story I realize that there are a lot of interesting ideas that are just ignored. I don't neccesarily think every musical should reflect current events, but here we have a tale of asymetrical warfare; a small but determined group of fighters defending their home turf and holding back a much better equipped empire. Of course the empire has names for these fighters: "Pirates" (just like other empires sometimes label those who oppose an occupation "terrorists") I would find it difficult to resist having the British at some point say that they were merely fighting to bring freedom and better government to the Irish. I also hope that the issue of who is using the term "Pirate" and how the Irish feel about this is addressed.

[kaycee]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 5:00pm

I know for certain that they are trying to work out a more gripping ending for Act 2. But also keep in mind that there might be such big changes in the works, but changes that will not be put into place until the move to Broadway, given the restrictive rules that are in place for Chicago. That being said, aside from an ending with a little more umph, I really didn't see a problem with the libretto or the story. I was very much engaged and at the edge of my seat for most of the show.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 6:20pm

"...there might be such big changes in the works, but changes that will not be put into place until the move to Broadway, given the restrictive rules that are in place for Chicago."

It sounds like you might have some inside information about this. What do you mean by restrictive rules in Chicago? Is this just a matter of the limited amount of time that the cast can rehearse while also doing 8 shows a week?

[kaycee]

Posted: 10/10/06 at 6:25pm

Yes, that and apparently the show is only allowed to make a certain amount of changes, and with the limited rehersal time, it is impossible to implement big changes, or so says members of the cast. I wish I remember exactly how it was put.

[bardolator]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 12:55am

The thing with the crucial discussion between Elizabeth and Grania happening behind a screen is probably because, historically, there were no witnesses to this conversation, and no records of the content were kept. We just know the outcome (that Grania was given her ships and her son back, and given an income based on her husbands' estates). I don't know that this choice is intended to echo WICKED; having Elphaba "melt" behind the scrim always seemed to me a way of dealing with a difficult effect; from the way I've heard this described, it seems to be a true directorial and storytelling "choice." Guess I'll know more when I see it.

Or I could just be naive! But I choose to believe it's not just recycling.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 8:47am

>We just know the outcome (that Grania was given her ships and her son back, and >given an income based on her husbands' estates).

Do we know this from watching the show? I don't remember all of this being brought out, and it's the sort of information that might make the audience care about the story more. In general I think Pirate Queen would have more appeal if there was a greater sense of historical accuracy to it. Not that it should be a history lesson, but I found your post a lot more interesting than the entire second act I saw.

SPOILERS

The idea of Grace meeting with the Queen is fascinating. (At least it could be if they brought it out in front of that ridiculous screen.) I'm sure plenty of other story elements in this show have been fictionalized. Is there any historical evidence that Queen Elizabeth was jealous because Grace had a boyfriend? This could be a classic confrontation scene, but they have to write something first.

I thought the screen was a brilliant device in Wicked, because it allowed their story to be kept entirely separate from the "Wizard of Oz". Here it just feels like a cop out. Just imagine if at the end of Miss Saigon Kim committed suicide behind a screen.

(Now that I think about it Kim might have gone behind something when she actually pulled the trigger. I should think of a better example...)

Updated On: 10/11/06 at 08:47 AM

[wishinguweresomehow]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 11:49am

well like bardolator said there is no documents and such about what exactly was discussed between Elizabeth and Grania, so I can understand why they decided to put their conversation behind a scrim. However, you do have a point, because there are several fictionalized things within the show...ie: the way Donal is killed, the fact that Grania's "true-love" Tiernan doesnt actually exist and the man that Grania goes on to marry only lasts a few years. But putting the convo behind a scrim kinda leaves that to the imagination of what you think goes on...or at least, that's how I took it, knowing some background info on the subject...

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 12:14pm

"But putting the convo behind a scrim kinda leaves that to the imagination of what you think goes on..."

If they're going to leave the resolution of the story and the climax of the show to my imagination, then I think I'll just stay home. It's a lot cheaper to use my imagination without buying all those expensive tickets and paying for parking near the Cadillac Palace.

Even just the information bardolator provided, (which I assume is based on reading the novel) would add a lot of depth to what was an uninspiring conclusion when I saw the show.

I have no doubt that all of this is going to be revised. This is why out of town tryouts are done after all. To be fair to Galati, I saw an early version of Ragtime in Toronto and Act 2 was a trainwreck then. If PQ can be fixed up as well as Ragtime was they'll be fine.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 12:17pm

Adding nudity always works too.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 10/11/06 at 12:20pm

>Adding nudity always works too.

That's a good point. Marc Shaiman's backside is definitely what saved "Fame Becomes Me"!