Really stupid GYPSY question- Page 2

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 2:06pm

Interesting response from Merman to your question is this 2003 Opera News article by the author of the forthcoming Memrman biography:

===

Like Gypsy Rose Lee, who intended her book to be not an attack on her mother but a tribute to her, Merman saw Rose as a heroine. "She had so much heart," she commented to Lee in a television interview several years after the show had closed, "and whatever she did, she did for the girls."
“Mama’s Talkin’ Loud”

[morosco]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 3:41pm

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I would love to see Momma Rose and Louise as guests on the Dr. Phil Show!

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 3:53pm

Pal Joey, the article "Mama's Talking Loud" should be required reading for all who love the musical GYPSY. It is absolutely fascinating and gives insight as to Merman's interpretation of the role of Mama Rose: she saw her as a heroine, doing everything for the girls, sacrificing her own life for them. Of course Rose overdoes it and elicits rejection from her two daughters. Thus the tension in the confrontational scene in the dresssing room that precedes "Roses Turn". Incidentally, in the script, the scene has Rose saying, "...What'd I do it for? You say I fought my whole life. I fought YOUR whole life. So now tell me: WHAT'D I DO IT FOR?" Then Louise is to say quietly, after a long moment, "I thought you did it for me, Momma." Then Rose stares, her hands drop to her sides, and she turns and quietly goes out. Then comes the dynamic "Rose's Turn", when Rose lets everything that has been bottled up inside of her come out. So, I feel that Louise is being sincere when she quietly says that line. However, I think that other posters have shown that the line has multiple meanings, as Pal Joey has said.

As I have said in numerous threads, I have seen all of the Broadway Roses, starting with seeing Merman five times, directed by Jerome Robbins, who Merman referred to as teacher. I preferred her interpretation of "Rose's Turn" to Angela Lansbury's, Lansbury being directed by the librettist Arthur Laurents who had "Roses's Turn" become a true mad scene. When I saw Lansbury in London, prior to her production coming to Broadway, she didn't hammer home that number as vehemently and angrily as she later did in NYC. I just felt that the number doesn't need to be hammered home in that way, there being moments of lack of control and pathos, with such stage directions during the number as "stopping dead as the words hit her" and "trying to recover".And as you can hear on the OBCR, Rose stuttering as she proceeds with the number.

I would give anything to be able to see Patti Lupone in the current production of GYPSY at the City Centre, but am just not able to, living far away from Broadway now. It will be the first Broadway Rose that I will have missed.I envy all of you seeing this masterpiece of musical theatre.

Updated On: 7/12/07 at 03:53 PM

[WaltSummersPI]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 3:59pm

Gypsy9, Patti's Rose seems almost opposite of what Ethel Merman did. You don't believe for one second on stage that this Rose is doing anything for anyone other than herself.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 5:03pm

If I were directing, I'd read it as "I THOUGHT (Used to think) you did it for me...(but now I know better)."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 5:11pm

Sondheim once said that Merman's Rose completely believed she was doing it all for her daughters and was genuinely shocked to be accused of selfishness. I believe he said something like "She had these little piggy eyes and she would open them wide and you would just believe her."

He (or Arthur) also said that Merman was "too stupid" to understand what was going on in Rose's Turn, but somehow, through her force of nature, she communicated it perfectly.

Yes, he said "little piggy eyes."

Updated On: 7/12/07 at 05:11 PM

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 6:35pm

Having said that Merman felt that Rose was doing it all for her girls, after "Rose's Turn" when Louise comes on stage, the dialogue continues:
Louise:-quietly)You'd really have been something, Mother.
Rose:Think so?
Louise:If you had had someone to push you like I had...
Rose:-Tough with herself, too, she shakes her head) If I could've been, I would've been. And that's show business...I guess I did do it for me.
Louise: Why, Mother?
Rose: Just wanted to be noticed.
Louise: Like I wanted you to notice me...I still do, Momma. (She holds out her arms to Rose, who hesitates, then comes running to Louise like a child. Louise pats her, kisses her hair as she says): OK, Momma...OK, Rose.

So in the end Rose admits she did it for herself. But she could have been motivated all along the way by her feeling that she WAS doing it for the girls. People who continuously "help" others are often doing it for their own feelings of well being and self satisfaction.

Updated On: 7/12/07 at 06:35 PM

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 8:52pm

I always heard it as sincere.

And Patti is the only Rose I've ever seen who "gets" the moment after "Like I wanted you to notice me."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 9:21pm

Patti and Laura Benanti play that scene like it's never been played before.

Interstingly, Merman haaaaaaaaaaaaaaated the line "I just wanted to be noticed" and campaigned to have it cut.

In her mind, it was simply not true: Rose did it for her daughters. Period. Not to be "noticed."

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 7/12/07 at 9:27pm

If she did it for her daughters, what did Merman think Rose's Turn was about?

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/13/07 at 1:32pm

Rose left Louise in her dressing room and prefaces "Rose's Turn" by engaging in an angry talking to herself:
Rose: "I thought you did it for me, Momma...I thought you did it for me, Momma"--I thought you made a no-talent ox into a star because you like doing things the hard way, Momma. (Louder) And you haven't got any talent!--not what I call talent, Miss Gypsy Rose Lee.(Rose shouts defiantly):I made you! and you want to know why? You wanna know what I did it for?!
(Louder) BECAUSE I WAS BORN TOO SOON AND STARTED TOO LATE, THAT'S WHY! With what I have in me I could have been better than
ANY OF YOU! What I got in me--what I been holding down inside of me--if I ever let it out, there wouldn't be signs big enough! There wouldn't be lights bright enough! HERE SHE IS ,BOYS! HERE SHE IS WORLD! HERE'S ROSE!!

And then she begin's singing the number "Rose's Turn". Rose is extremely angry at herself for spending all of her time promoting and pushing her girls through the years. She is jealous of Louise's stardom, feels unappreciated, and lets out all of her inhibitions. Believe me, Merman put "Rose's Turn" across and then some. Pal Joey has said that either Laurents or Sondheim said that Merman was too stupid to understand what "Rose's Turn" was all about. Well she sure didn't deliver the song as if she were too stupid. I saw her deliver that number five times. Listen to the OBCR and hear what has been to me the definitive "Rose's Turn". Maybe LuPone will match or surpass that recording--I hope a recording is made of the Encores! production

Updated On: 7/13/07 at 01:32 PM

[ImaRose2]

Posted: 7/14/07 at 1:51pm

This is so fascinating, I've been pondering just this one line since I read this thread.

I think that Louise's "I thought you did it for me, Momma." is meant to be a jab to Rose (striking her at a very rare vulnerable moment) but also in Louise's heart of hearts she wished that indeed her mother was doing it for her. As a mother should do for their children.