SHOW BOAT, OKLAHOMA, A CHORUS LINE or TABOO-- Most Innovative?

[Unknown User]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:17am

Of the three musicals--SHOW BOAT, OKLAHOMA, A CHORUS LINE or
TABOO--whicH do you consider to be the most innnovative, and why?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:26am

Ohhhhh, this is indeed a hard one. They've each changed the way musicals are written and performed...except Taboo. I'm not sure why that's included on the list. I'm gonna have to go with Showboat though. I mean the others made great contributions but I believe showboat was what launched what is now known as the Book musical. A musical with a script and a score that enhances the storyline and enhances character wasn't the norm back then. Kerns use of leitmotif and themes became the early ways of composing a cohesive score. In addition to the piece itself, it's subject matter wasn't talked about or sung about much in those times. And to have whites and blacks on stage singing together and not making fun of themselves or each other is notable. Also I think it's the first musical that feature an interracial relationship. So yeah def Showboat.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:28am

Too easy:

A CHORUS LINE

It practically invented the "workshop" and if not invented it, certainly put it's stamp on the process, truely a collaboration.

The power, the passion, the simplicity of staging, the emotion, the heartache and the drama all add up to a brilliant piece.

It's innovation: it turned a group into a singular, well-defined character. The fact that all these unique personalities onstage are fused into one riveting "character"

[cturtle]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:30am

i could not agree more with jazzy SHOW BOAT is still my fave score.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:36am

Interesting points backup. While I picked Showboat, I think the real reason for Chorus line's Innovativeness(yeah I know not really a word) was because of not only its workshop form and colaboration aspect, because that is even still sort of rare today, but the changing of the actor make up. Previously shows had a dancing chorus, a singing chorus and the principles. This show created the triple threat. From them on people started looking for people who did all three, which is why today there is hardly ever one or the other. They look for Dancers who sing well. Singers who move well, actors who dance. Etc. Groundbreaking. I hate Michael Bennett for it...I'm not a dancer LOL

[Marquise]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 3:10am

You can't count "Oklahoma!" out. It is one of the first, if not the first musical that used music, lyrics and dance as an organic whole to propel a story.

You could say it's the "grandaddy" of the musical as we know it today.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 3:33am

I don't discount Oklahoma. It was innovative, but didn't have the MOST impact on the artform to me.

[feinstein9]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 3:35am

i think, rather than choosing one, perhaps we should realize that they are all important milestones in theatre history. we can't have any without the other. it's all connected...

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 3:42am

A CHORUS LINE, while it's my favorite of the four, isn't even in the same ballpark as OKLAHOMA and SHOWBOAT in terms of innovation.

If you look at what the "musical" was in 1927, that SHOWBOAT happened at all is a miracle. Musicals were, without exception, light, silly entertainments, with nonsensical plots and, to the extent that shows even bothered to have stories with a beginning, middle and end, the subject matter they dealt with with rarely more complicated than "boy meets girl, etc..."

SHOWBOAT was the FIRST show to use the "musical comedy" form to explore very serious issues (racism, miscegenation) and forever altered the kinds of stories that the artform could take on and present successfully. Shows from PORGY AND BESS to PAL JOEY to WEST SIDE STORY to FIDDLER to A CHORUS LINE to DREAMGIRLS to RAGTIME to RENT to CAROLINE, OR CHANGE owe SHOWBOAT a debt.

OKLAHOMA, while it wasn't quite the first, was the first SUCCESSFUL show to fully integrate music and lyrics and book and dance and acting into one cohesive, inextricable whole. It's success (by the time it closed it was the longest running musical in history) mandated and codified that for a work of musical theatre to be deemed successful artistically (and, for the most part, popularly) it MUST be similarly integrated.

The mandate from OKLAHOMA was so total and pervasive that even longtime, veteran, succesful musical theatre artists of the time, such as Irving Berlin (with ANNIE GET YOUR GUN) and Cole Porter (with KISS ME, KATE) found that they had to conform with the new regime or perish. Nearly every succesful show (artistically and box-office-wise) in the last 60+ years has been deeply influenced by OKLAHOMA and, frankly, we are still under its influence to this day.

Updated On: 5/21/05 at 03:42 AM

[Jon]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 8:18am

One effect of trying to follow the OKLAHOMA mold - for a while, it seemed every new "serious" musical had to have "The Dream Ballet". Some of them were simply awful, such as the Halloween Ballet in A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN and the "Call of the Sea" Ballet in FANNY (which also had a Circus Ballet!).

Louise's Ballet in CAROUSEL - good.
Small House of Uncle Thomas in KING AND I - good.
Wang Ta's Dream in FLOWER DRUM SONG - pretty damn lame.

Thankfully, Rodgers & Hammerstein realized that a dream ballet would not fit into SOUND OF MUSIC!

[romanov]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 8:23am

Show Boat ushered in the modern musical. Period.

[magruder]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 9:09am

I'd also have to say Show Boat. You have to sit and wonder what it must have been like to see that show in 1927 in an era when every musical was about how brother and sister would win back the family fortune, or whether the football hero could pass his French test before the big game. Then, along comes Show Boat - with its shocking opening lyrics, the famous miscegenation scene and a depiction of an unhappy marriage and generations of an extended family, aging before our eyes. Show Boat opened the door for everything that the musical theatre could be, and made possible the advances that would be pioneered by Rodgers and Hammerstein, et al.

While Singingbackup's point about A Chorus Line inventing the workshop is true, I do wish that more theatre artists followed Bennett's example and used the workshop process for the betterment of the shows themselves. Now, they are used as glorified backers auditions, rather than any genuine work getting done. It's unfortunate too, that A Chorus Line was not MORE influential. I'd love to see more shows trying to follow Chorus Line's example of completely integrated book, score, design and staging.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 10:39am

I'm with Feinstein. I don't know enough about ACL and Showboat to accurately choose, I think, but because of the difference in eras among several of those choices, I don't know that the point is choosing one - rather, we should recognize why each one was innovative in its own way and time. They each represent some sort of important turn in musical theatre history.

Updated On: 5/21/05 at 10:39 AM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 11:11am

Putting TABOO in the same catagory of SHOWBOAT, OKLAHOMA or A CHORUS LINE is insulting...

OKLAHOMA probably had the most direct influence on the modern traditional structure of musical theatre. SHOW BOAT was of course ground breaking in its subejct matter, but people tend to forget the original production continued with the habit of continually altering songs and the book to accomidate certain performers and popular music, as was the tradition in musical theatre at the time.

The show, while experimental, also didn't really influence the way musicals were written. Musical Theatre of the 20s and 30s continued to be basically the same non integrated schmaorgasborg of songs and lines even after SHOWBOAT was a hit.

OKLAHOMA! changed the structure of the musical. It's songs and dances were completely integral to the story, advancing it rather then commenting on it. After it opened, there was basically no turning back. So while things like A CHORUS LINE, or even HAIR may have had incredible influence on the material performed on Broadway, or the way Broadway musicals are staged, they didn't change the very structure of the Broadway musical.

So my vote would be for OKLAHOMA.
Updated On: 5/21/05 at 11:11 AM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 11:22am

I think I'd almost substitute RENT for Taboo, in terms of categorization. Though Taboo is interesting, because it's sort of rock musical meets jukebox musical, in a sense. I don't know that it's "insulting," but perhaps misguided to put it in the same category. Taboo represents, like a said, a certain turn in the genre, but it wasn't that one revolutionary show. If you're trying to find one, though, RENT may not even be the one. Maybe something even earlier, like JCS, unless you are going purely for the 90's/00's time frame.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 11:30am

I don't understand why West Side Story was left off this list--would be my choice. The combination of Bernstein's in my opinion greatest score and perhaps one of the greatest scores in any musical(especially the orchestrations), Robbins' using all forms of dancing to push forward the storyline, and the dark source material that didn't make it a triumph when it premiered in my opinion are extremely innovative. I think between the music and dancing, you could watch the show just seeing the dancing and hearing the orchestra play and understand the show completely. Robbins drawed on De Mille's dream ballet in Oklahoma! to completely expand it in the storytelling for this show.

Maybe for certain reasons, one has to agree that Showboat and/or Oklahoma! may have been the biggest breakthroughs ever but I certainly think WSS is up there and deserves recognition as well.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 11:53am

They've ALL changed the theater world.

SHOW BOAT: mixed cast and really began to help in mixing casts and putting blacks on stage even though there had been shows like SHUFFLE ALONG.

OKLAHOMA: the American dream. The war was on and this was an escape. It made for fun, beauty, elegance. Plus, it began the route for dance and its future. DeMille's vision completely opened doors for shows like WEST SIDE STORY and...

A CHORUS LINE: everything taboo, everything people didn't really want to talk about but they did and IT WORKED. A huge success, a beautiful, touching show that really opened eyes to the work, dedication and drive it takes to be a performer.

TABOO: why is it on this list? It wasn't a terrible show and yes, it touched on societies that we don't normally discuss, hence the title "TABOO". But so did RENT. If anything, RENT should be in this place... or HAIR.

[South Fl Marc]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 11:58am

In 25 years, will Taboo be remembered for anything else than being a bomb on Broadway. Time will tell.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 12:03pm

It won't, and that's a terrible shame.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 12:07pm

While Oklahoma is great, many people aren't giving Showboat it's dues. Like I said it's more than about form. It DID actually change the way people wrote musicals. You're forgetting that musicals didn't have Books. Most of them were revues and a collection of songs. I think that's MAJOR. Oklahoma didn't create nearly the stirr that Showboat did, not only because it's subject matter. But because of WHO was in the production, WHAT the subject was, and HOW it was sung. THat's already more than Oklahoma. Kern paved the way with his score, Hammerstein paved the way with his words, the piece collectively paved the way for interracial love stories(which was a way bigger deal even when Oklahoma opened), and the cast paved the way for blacks and whites to be theatrically integrated. That's waaaaaay more than form there. Gershwin saw Showboat and saw that musicals can tell a story which helped sparked in him Progy and Bess. Mind you it was fully sung through but it has a lot of the conventions of what showboat did. Finally, Hammerstein went back to Showboat and expanded on what HE already started for Oklahoma.

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 12:07pm

TABOO? Wow, you guys are jaded...

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:23pm

Jazzy, AMEN! Show Boat opened doors to book musicals. Granted, most were weak until the opening of OKLAHOMA! Pal Joey doesn't exactly have the strongest book in the world. However, Show Boat also did something very new for book musicals: songs that furthered the plot instead of just writing a scene ABOUT the song and then repeating it all in the lyrics.

[riv]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:48pm

The fact of the matter is Show Boat didn't provide a workable formula to follow like Oklahoma! did. What followed up Show Boat? Did its "formula" became the standard to write in? Show Boat set nothing in stone.

One of the keys to Oklahoma! is that Rodgers & Hammerstein successfully followed it up with Carousel. It wasn't a one-shot deal as Show Boat essentially had been. After both Oklahoma! and Carousel, everybody HAD to write in the mold of R&H, even Porter and Berlin.

It wasn't Show Boat which eventually changed the way the majority of musicals were written, it was Oscar Hammerstein's individual and persistant vision. His magic with Rodgers was the ultimate groundbreaking event.

Perhaps Kern and Hammerstein couldn't have done it, since both came from an opperetta background. With Rodgers, the perspective of thge l;ight mi=usical comedy meshed with Hammerstein inclination for opperetta.

[riv]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 1:55pm

Sorry, double post.

So let me just add that Taboo is obviously just being included to provoke anger. Disregard it.

Of course A Chorus Line put the workshop on the map. Now let's get rid of it and go back to the days of putting things before PAYING customers and having a limited amount of time on the road to work the kinks out of shows. If there's one thing I can't stand it's reading about endless workshops taking place for shows. Stop playing it safe in the cocoon of a workshop. Get in a theater with ticket buyers.


Updated On: 5/21/05 at 01:55 PM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 5/21/05 at 2:03pm

Actually Hammerstein was teh driving force of the form of the musicals, not Rodgers. Look at what Rodgers did with Hart. It was Hammerstein that started to change. Hammerstein followed up SHOWBOAT with Oklahoma. Hammerstein seemed to invent the form that started with Showboat. If someone else wrote Showboat I'd see your point. But Hammerstein started with it. I guess Hammerstein had the most impact of anyone lyricist/librettist