Some of this is a matter of SAFETY!

[Flaunt It]

Posted: 11/10/07 at 9:56pm

As producers want to cut back the number of hands at a job, they will be forcing people to cover many duties they are not qualified to cover. Do you really want a stage carpenter in charge of making sure the flying rigs are safe?

Though they are both doctors, you don't go to a dentist for brain surgery.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 11/10/07 at 10:30pm

THANK YOU.

OMG this is the biggest point that needs to be made. Its all well and good wanting there to be people who can cover multiple jobs, BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE A DIFFERENT PERSON COVERING EACH THING BACKSTAGE.

What happens if you have someone covering 2 jobs, and both of systems happen to fail? You have lives in danger. People can die if things go wrong backstage. Plain and simple. The safety of actors as well as stagehands (and anyone else backstage) will be put at risk if the league has its way.

[Boq101]

Posted: 11/10/07 at 11:16pm

this is why each show should evaluate itself and draw up its own contract.

[chinto1984]

Posted: 11/10/07 at 11:52pm

Boq101 has made the best point. Shows should draw up the contract because theaters are not obligated to hire 15 actors when only 7 are required. If a show requires 15 stagehands to operate safely there is no need to hire 20.

I don't believe the producers are jeopardizing the safety of the company. Again I don't know the exact details. I might be totally wrong and this why I have asked on another thread who knows the actual rules to inform us. For example, if a theater is obligated to hire 7 hands when the show only needs 5 to operate safely, they shouldn't be obligated to hire all 7. If a play has no flies but has lighting, than the theater should only have to hire the number appropriate to operate the fly system if necessary. It doesn't seem that the previous rules and contract were reflecting this. I could be totally wrong. If you know the actual rules please inform us.

Remember that people are not monkeys and can multi-task. Most technicians know how to operate more than one thing or at least should. If the really can only do one task, then stagehands are getting paid too much.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/10/07 at 11:55pm

And specialists in the medical field should make less than General Practitioners.

[joniray]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:05am

Oh yeah, that is such an appropriate analogy. Because running a lighting board or a fly system really is as complicated and requires the same level of skill as brain surgery. I mean, I can learn a lighting board or a fly system in a day or two. I'm sure I can learn brain surgery that easily as well.

Apples vs. Oranges.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:07am

**** off you condescending union hater.


YOU'RE AN IGNORANT TWAT.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:11am

JONIRAY-
Are you kidding me? Have you ever seen the lighting console in the Gershwin Theatre? How about the sound board in The Majestic? Your statement is so misguided it completely ruins any credibility you might have had left. You are exactly what is wrong with this message board.

[bugmenot]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:12am

1) I guarantee you you can't learn to be a master rigger in a day or two, and if you only have a day or two of training, I for one don't want anything you've rigged hanging over my head. The next time you're in a theatre, take a look up at the front of house lighting truss, and realize it's something that probably weighs 3 or 4,000 pounds (or more) and it is hanging on two pieces of chain attached to two pieces of building steel, and if the people who hung it there don't know what they're doing, it could come crashing down on several hundred people at any time.

2) "this is why each show should evaluate itself and draw up its own contract." this isn't really practical for may reasons. For one thing, the theatre OWNER is the employer, and is ultimately responsible (in terms of liability, etc) for what happens in their theatre. Not the show. It's also not at all practical for each show to negotiate a new contract with the unions on a show-by-show basis, because, as we see, it can be an extremely time-consuming and contentious process.

[chinto1984]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:13am

Specialist have to earn the same degrees as general practitioners and receive more training and certification, hence more pay. We can discuss the amount of pay and whether the amount of pay a stagehand receives is appropriate in the grand scheme of life. I don't wish to do that. My comment was more about workers in general and not specifically stagehands. A worker is more valuable to a company in which he or she can perform skills competently.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:17am

I wish we could filter out all posters who have never set foot backstage at a broadway show. Maybe then we could debate these issues with people who are actually familiar with Professional Stagecraft. Opinions that gestated at the "Dogpatch community Players" really have no place here.

[AKDPerformer]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:22am

Neverandy is my hero.

[chinto1984]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:24am

Since Neverandy is the expert can he tell us the regulations of what theaters need to operate safely, safety codes, and the qualifications needed for the jobs?

Then he would be my hero.

[joniray]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:28am

Yes, actually, I have seen the lighting console at the Gershwin (since I had an ASM friend there show me around). I’d probably like a week of training on that one

Are you really still trying to say that the level and skill for running a lighting console is comparable to a brain surgeon?

Liverpool, I see you continue to be your same lovely charming self post after post. It really makes your "side" look good.

And speaking of "sides," this "union-hater" is actually a member of two unions at the moment, and have been a member of one union or another for over 20 years. I've marched in two strikes, which I very much believed in. I just happen to find this one to be utterly ridiculous and unjustified.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:37am

Well, let me just say that you won't find me walking onto a Broadway stage without an IATSE crew at the controls. If you were Ashley Brown would you let someone with "one or two days training" (as was stated on this board by some idiot) operate your flying rig. If you were in the ensemble of Phantom, would you perform the Act 1 finale with a inexperienced fly-man at the controls of the Chandelier. To discount the training and expertise of these men and women who literally take the lives of Performers in their hands each night is a true example of ignorance. I am no hero, (although the moniker is appreciated), but I know enough about this business from having performed around the world in over 150 theatrical productions in 10 years to be able to spot an ignorant fool when I see one. Chinto, you are an ignorant fool.

[AKDPerformer]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:40am

You are my hero for defending/wording your statements so perfectly :)

[chinto1984]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 12:57am

I said nothing about them being unqualified or unable to perform their jobs competently and neither is this strike. What I am asking is do YOU or anyone know what the guidelines are. The matter of safety is an issue but I don't think this is the heart of this strike. If you owned a theater/buisness and were obligated to always hire a certain number of workers when you only need this number to operate efficiently and safely, why would you want to spend extra money if not necessary.

What I have been asking on all these threads does anyone know the actual terms and regulations involving the operation of a theater in general. I am not talking about Phantom or heavy tech show. What I have been reading is that what is being fought over is willing to be given up by the union as long as the get something in return probably increase in wage or increase in benefits.

Honestly, Neverandy, you would be my hero if you could answer me this because no else has.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 1:08am

"Are you really still trying to say that the level and skill for running a lighting console is comparable to a brain surgeon?"

No, I am not. Nothing in my thread said that Stage Technicians undergo the same amount of Training as a Brain Surgeon. While it may not be as comprehensive or difficult as something like Brain surgery, certain specific jobs in Theatre require a healthy amount of training-both in the classroom and on the job.
What I am saying is that in most professions, those who have specialized skills usually are justifiably compensated differently than those who are more non-specifically trained. That was pretty obvious in my previous post, but since it apparently was a difficult concept for you to grasp, I hope this clears it up.
Don't put words in my mouth.

[Neverandy]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 1:14am

Chinto-The minimum number of workers needed to safely run a typical Broadway show, is basically THE issue at stake. The answer you are seeking is exactly what each side is dictating and neither one agrees. I mistakenly called you an fool earlier. I am at odds with a few people on these threads and I am afraid I lumped you in with them. In this case I am the ignorant fool. Please accept my apologies! :)

[Izzie2]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 2:23am

mad pops neverandy for having the balls to apologise!

*I'd say something to do with the strike, but I am ill informed and ignorant....maybe once some more debating has been done I will be capable of rendering a semi-educated remark

[Flaunt It]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 6:01am

It is not just RUNNING a lighting board or a fly system... it is FIXING them when they breakdown or crash... before or during the show. And that DOES takes a certain skill set.

Also, as an audience member do you feel safe knowing that if you are seeing a show there may not be someone close by to release the fire curtain should a fire happen on stage? Well get ready for that... minimum hand will mean that position is gone.
Updated On: 11/11/07 at 06:01 AM

[greatwhiteway2]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 6:30am

Yeah, I would be. That could be automatic or easily reassigned. But are you kidding? Someone is hired to release a curtain in case of a fire. I definitely have to many things to do in my job.

[Flaunt It]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 7:17am

It is not that easy.

1. The curtain is manual for a reason... fire could short out the automation.

2. Most shows have people working in the flies who would take care of this as well as other jobs should a fire break out... but for shows that dont have people working in the flies... yes there is a person in charge of it.. because go forbid a fire break out and you have to wait for one of the few hands working in the theatre that night to climb up and release it.. if you have ever been part of a fire.. you know seconds delay can mean many lives lost.

3. Do you complain that your local firemen are not busy enough? Have too little to do when there are not fires to fight? When they are needed.. they are vital!

Maybe we can save a few bucks and get rid of the ushers too.. are most people that incapable of finding a seat in a theatre?
Updated On: 11/11/07 at 07:17 AM

[Albin]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 7:30am

There is one positive thing about the strike-it's responsible for all the cat fights that have broken out on this board!

[greatwhiteway2]

Posted: 11/11/07 at 7:30am

You need the fire men to put out the fire. No one else can do that. Anyone can pull a curtain. The fire doors everywhere are automated, if for some reason they don't close the staff closes them. I think you picked a not so great example for keeping jobs the League wants to do away with.