Sondheim's Bounce--opinions?

OK so I know this was prob discussed on here when the CD came out and before--and I've already discusses it a lot on the various Sondheim forums--but as part of my obssessive listening of all the Sondheim show albums in order I finally got to Bounce tonight... and wanted to discuss it.

Now I'm sure some replies on here will just be "it sucks" (I know a few people listed it under cast albums they regret buying) which is fine but I'd like to hear more...

I still can't make up my mind on this score (I know nothing of the show and how the Hal Prince production looked--annoying the booklet has NO pics--except for this kinda great clip of Creel singing Talent on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVe_Lshcg4 ) and it drives me a little bit crazy, being as Sondheim obssessed as I am.

Anyway--I do like the score. I don't think it's just because I'm so big into Sondheim and his music has been such an important part of my life for the past 15 years--but I admit that probably plays a part.

Something's missing though. When I play the CD I'm always surprised--I like it better than I remember and enjoy the listen. But unlike every other Sondheim CD I own (including Forum, etc) I have no desire to immediately replay parts of it when it's over--or the next day.

A big part of it may be the story and the way it's told--it seems Sondheim wants to go for his most Broadway score since Merrily (and indeed a lot of it reminds me--for whatever reason--musically of snatches of Merrily)--but Merrily, while a flawed show, musically ahs so much that really grabs at your emotions. Though Bounce has elements in the story that SHOULD do this (especially for me as I've suffered from sibling jealousy, etc) everythign seems kinda covered up by some sort of "musical comedy" distancing technique that works at odds with the project I think.

Prince and Weidman and Sondheim seemHell bent that this is a Vaudevillian style musical comedy and nothing in the story (except I guess the whirlwind of adventures and locations and characters--but nothing thematically) makes me feel that way. We get moments like Addison's final song of epiphany in the characters but it just doesn't resonate like, say, similar moments in Sunday in the Park do.

Sound wise it also oddly reminds me a LOT of Sondheim's first, Saturday Night (and a large part of this I think is due to John Tunick's orchestrations--he afterall did this score and Saturday Night's orchestrations around the same time). But there's another part of my prob--Sat Night has an insanely light and inconsequential libretto with very melodic, breezy songs. It feels liek for some reason Sondheim wants to go for a similar type of score for this--and it feels to me at odds with the material.

I dunno, hard for me to explain so I'd like to hear other people's opinions. It's true also that more than any other Sondheim score I hear bits of past Sondheim musical moments all over the place--but that's probably unfair of me to say as it's at least partly because I'm simply less familiar with Bounce whereas I could probably hum every other Sondheim score from start to finish.

So I guess right now my take on it is it's not the crap some unfairly make it to be. It's definetly a worthwhile score but it also, and it pains me to say this, doesn't make me wish that Sondheim and all would revise or find a new way to stage it--I'm sorta happy with them moving on and giving up on it. It just falls... flat I guess. And to be honest it makes me a bit depressed that this might be the last full Sondheim score (Frogs doesn't count for me as it was only a bit new) that we get--especially when the one before was one of my fave Sondheim, or anyone, scores ever--Passion and woulda been a nice note (I again hate to say) to end with.

So opinions? I'd especially love to hear memories of the Prince staging (it's always been kinda interesting to me that in the late 90s/early 00s Prince returned to two of his most successfull collaborators--Lloyd Webber and Sondheim and was unable to make either show work)

E

Thanks--I know the whole Gold backstory, have heard the Garber/Lane workshop, etc etc so you don't need to reiterate it but I appreciate it.

(And ya as a Canadian--what was with the Yukon/Alaska thing? I assumed it was meant to be a joke or something...)

I have to admit I don't like Richard Kind because his character on Spin City made me wanna bash my tv in--it's taken a long timew fo rme to hear his voice and not picture that character--which is *not* his fault. That said, this time I listened I enjoyed his performance.

I think the show was meant to be a Vaudeville take (wasn't that sorta Hal Prince's "concept"?) or gloss on their lives--so far from realistic. I do find the characters interesting and the story as well that's part of my problem--it feels like you have these major emotional issues and then the show written for them is trying to be an old style show--it feels at odds.

The Frogs for me (as written anyway--haven't seen it on stage) works much better--I can make sense of what's trying to be done--and I enjoy it. I enjoy Bounce too--I meant to give that impression that I'm always surprised at how much I like it but unlike nearly every other Sondheim there's nothing there pulling me back to it after the CD is over.

(and Kleban's Class Act was made up of songs he wrote for other projects all combined together--wasn't it? So I don't really get the connection )

I'd much rather see Sondheim make something out of his unmade movie musical, Singing Out Loud, or preferably start on something new than work on Bounce more to be honest...

E

My copy iof Wise Guys seems to have disappeared so I'll have to track down a source--but I think I liked the performances better and that was it.

While I like Bounce more than you--I agree with your reaction. That's what Iw as trying to say--nothing compells me to go back to it--even though when I listen I'm alwasy a bit surprised at enjoying it more than I remembered...

My Merrily comparison (and Saturday Night) stands though both, especially Merrily *do* connect to me on some level. Merrily is actually one of my fave scores (by the time the OBCR gets to Our Time I always feel slightly devestated) but I get what you mean (how's that for vague)

ANd I know it's not fair to compare one show to the other--especially with Sondheim, but Bounce coming after Passion is especially hard I guess (and I know on the Sondheim forum people brought up that at Steve's current age none of the "greats" really made major musicals--but, regardless)

About this time last year SJS gave a talk at the Queen’s Theatre in London. He said something along the lines of …Chicago was 85% there, Washington was 90% there. Were doing some re writes and rehearsed reading then hopefully a new staged version will appear after that

I too would love to see the Frogs, although I think the changes Nathan Lane made are a bit too didactic. I think that’s why it didn’t go down too well at the Lincoln Centre. The fleshing out of characters is great and I love it how Dionasis is a fraud with everyone else. How ever I can’t help thinking The Frogs is very much the Nathan Lane show. I think John Doyle really needs to get his hands on this one

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FROGS:

I would love to read both scripts. Where did you get yours from?

I very much like the sound of the first recording. The second one sounds a bit pop for my tastes. Although im maybe biased due to my love of classical and opera

If John Doyle could somehow combine the first version, with I love to Travel, Dress Big and new version Ariodane (Maybe for her to sing) and restore the original ending then I think we would have a perfect show.

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My copy of Frogs is an ex library edition from the 70s which is in the same volume with Forum--but I think you can get it individually too...

Sean--I know exactly what you mean. THat;s maybe what I meant by nothing makes me wanna play it again though for me it's far from a pain to listen to. But there's nothign that really compels the score forward...

That said I have to say while showering before work this morning "YOu are the BEst Thing THat Ever Happened to Me" was stuck in my head....

People on here know I'm not the biggest fan of Steven Suskin's views on showtunes but in his playbill.com column he went ON and on abotu what an astonishign score this was, etc etc--I just wish I knew what he was hearing.

Again though I need to reiterate just to make myself feel better :P I do always enjoy it more than I remember...

YES Pawk's first song for some reason sounds like it was lifted from the Schulman production of Merrily straight on.

Lotsa the songs have a similar sound to the new Frogs songs from around the same time too

Interesting that your live experiences basically correspond to my feelings of the show on CD. The sequences you mention are definetly the highlights on CD--and that's exactly the problem--so unusual for Sondheim, you do never get a sense of WHY this story is being told

I love most of the score for its melodies and thoughtfulness. But I did find the show a little long and lacking a bit of drive, since the characters seemed to not only repeatedly "bounce" as they constantly said but also they seemed to know from the very beginning that all their bouncing was pointless. It's that typical "never look back" tenet we get in almost all Sondheim shows and yet, this time it's a self destructing tenet. And maybe that's what the main problem of the show is, it's all about that not looking back, moving forward, and all for its own sake. There is no further point beyond it. So as a matter of fact, if that is the conclusion, then the vaudevillian approach is wisely chosen to get the distanced view, since it's not really about the characters but rather about that tenet.

After listening to the snippet of "An Architect Sketching a Design," I realized that this song must be the bonus track retitled "A Little House for Mama" on the Bounce OCR. The song is poignantly sung by Richard Kind and is indeed one of my favorites which was unfortunately cut from the show. Although I didn't see the show on stage , the Bounce OCR has proved to be one of my favorite Sondheim recordings as of late. The themes: human resilience, self discovery and expansion, sibling rivalry and acceptance are very relevant and are recurrent in many of Sondheim's other works. Besides the use of period styles, I feel that I especially like the score for its vitality. I do hope that when the show premieres in New York more emphasis will be placed on the relationship between the two brothers and their characters will be brought more out into the light.