musican union question

[zzannahk]

Posted: 7/3/06 at 11:49pm

okay so in oder to not have canned music shows have to have a certain amount of musicans, right?

what are these numbers based on, for instance if i were writing an acapella musical would i still have to have musicans?

[allofmylife]

Posted: 7/3/06 at 11:52pm

There are Broadway experts here who can quote from the AFM guidebooks but I believe the answer is yes, you must have some musicians.

Just wait a few minutes, the guys with the answers are on the way...

Guys?....

[PitPro2004]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 12:10am

Perhaps someone who is actually in a pit right now could be more descript, but yes, musicians are trying to keep music live and fighting an uphill battle.

The amount of musicians in a show, *used* to be based on the size of house, i.e. the amount of seats in the house. Not sure how that ever came to be, but I can assure you that it's no longer in practice. Wicked was the last show to utilize such a concept.

In an effort to cut costs, producers have been trying to chop broadway pits for years. The musicians are always the first ones to go, so that's probably why we get a bit of a bad rap in the industry, because everyone complains that WE complain too much. (sigh)

If you want to listen to a tape as your ticket price goes up, well...I guess that's your prerogative, but it's not live theatre. Pure and simple.

As for an acapella show, it sounds to me like you would have to wrangle with the Union on some level, unless you can convince them that it's a play with some singing in it. Not really sure what you would have to do, to be honest. Does your work fit under the guise of "performance piece" perhaps?

[zzannahk]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 12:13am

we've just started workshoping ideas and such, but we didn't want to get to involved with an product that we couldn't *hope* would/could make it all the way.

[PitPro2004]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 12:51am

I would say go for it. It certainly sounds new and refreshing. I think the Union pretty much takes issue with those who want to use musicians, but want to say how many. At this point, I think it's just about trying to keep bodies in pits that *are* using live musicians. I think what you have probably is something totally different.

[IssaMe]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 8:35am

Not in your specific case, but in general - have you ever tried to perform to taped music --- it can be an absolute DISASTER!

[kooky]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 8:38am

AMEN to that IssaMe - - -

[leefowler]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 8:41am

It seems strange to say that your musical isn't worth doing if it can't go to Broadway (or, "all the way" as you say)

At any rate, the musician's union has been more flexible with union minimums these days. To my knowledge, there are no current musicals that employ "walkers" (although if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will tell me.)

[ThankstoPhantom]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 8:44am

A show had me sing a solo with canned music and it was absolutely atrocious. They soon gave me live accompaniament, which worked out a lot better.

[temms]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 11:27am

I'm in Local 802. There are minimums for all the Broadway theatres which require the producer to hire at least that many musicians. It ranges from between 3-19 and is determined by the size of the theatre.

However - a producer may petition the union to use less than the minimum number, if there is a compelling artistic reason why. Most of the time, these requests are granted. I would imagine that if you had a legtimately a cappella musical (which has been done before, incidentally, it was called "Avenue X" and while it never played Broadway, it's been done with some frequency elsewhere) you would almost certainly be covered under the "Special Situations" clause and you would be allowed to proceed without hiring the minimum.

People who do not work in the theatre frequently complain about the minimums, saying things like "Shouldn't it be the producer's decision how many musicians they use" and "Ticket prices are high because the musician's union forces producers to pay musicians who don't even play just to make the minimum!" First off, it has been my experience that 99% of the commercial producers I've worked with will use as small a band as possible, regardless of how it affects the show.

And as far as "walkers", the people who pad out the orchestras to meet the mimimum who don't actually play, there are none of those on Broadway right now, to my knowledge. If someone knows anything else, I'd be happy to hear. I think "Tommy" was the last show on Broadway that employed walkers. The union is very good about the Special Situations clause - to my knowledge, they have not unreasonably denied a request. They won't make you pay for a symphony orchestra for "Rent", but they will say that if you're going to do a big symphonic musical in a huge theatre, you will have to use a reasonably-sized orchestra. If there is an artistic reason you shouldn't have that large of an ensemble, odds are the union will grant an exception.

But then you get things like "Saturday Night Fever" that tried to get away with putting everything on synthesizers, then called the off-stage backup singers "Musicians", gave them tiny Casio keyboards and had them play, I believe, literally one note per night so they could be considered musicians and count toward to minimum. The union (rightly, I believe) came down hard on them, pointing out that the original Bee Gees recordings that they were supposedly "recreating" used full complements of real Brass and Strings, and since they were in a big house (the Minskoff), they would have to use the minimum size or hire walkers. I believe they hired the extra players and things that had been on synthesizers were now played by real strings. (I'm a keyboard player, by the way, so my bitching about synths is not snobbishness.)

It's somewhat controversial, but it seems like the people with the strongest objections have never dealt with the contract from either side. I have, and while it's frequently a bother, I think it's the best protection we have right now to keep live music on Broadway. Were the producers left to their own devices, I honestly think that live music would very quickly disappear. Producers have to think of the bottom line - it's their job. It doesn't make them evil, but it does mean that unions need to be extra-vigilant to protect their members.

Click the link for the 802 Wage Scale page. If you click on the "Broadway Agreement Memorandum" it will give you the current up-to-date minimums that were put in place after the semi-recent strike.


Broadway Wage Scale Memorandum Updated On: 7/4/06 at 11:27 AM

[MusicalComedyMan]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 11:44am

Ahhh... well first off you lost band member who is making about 600 a week with benefits (175 a wk) and payroll taxes (200 a week) we're talking about almost 1000 a week for an off bway show that is probably going to loose its entire capitalization anyway.

The biggest problem with off bway and local 802 are the RIDICULOUS music prep fees... that is something that is going to need to be addressed if Commercial Off Bway is going to exist at all!!!

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 12:53pm

Why does the New Amsterdam have a special clause requiring 19 musicians for productions by BVTVI (I assume that's Buena Vista Theatrical Ventures, Inc.)? Does this mean other companies would have a different minimum?

[PitPro2004]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 1:40pm

"There are minimums for all the Broadway theatres which require the producer to hire at least that many musicians. It ranges from between 3-19 and is determined by the size of the theatre"

Hey Temms, refresh my memory. I thought following the last strike a few years back, that this practice was subsequently eliminated, after the last round of collective bargaining. I spoke to some Wicked musicians who said that they were the last orch contracted using this practice. Did something happen later on down the line?

[temms]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 2:17pm

The minimums were reduced, not eliminated. "Wicked" may have been the last orchestra hired under the old minimums. The League of Producers wanted to eliminate the minimums entirely, the Musician's Union wanted them left in place. The compromise was the reduction. 24 or 26 used to be the top, which was reduced to 19. And I think they expanded the Special Situations language. I don't really know the details.

And several producers have used orchestras larger than the minimums - "Wonderful Town", for instance. I think it's always noted and appreciated and I wish more would do it. In my experience, in the end no producer has ever regretted hiring an extra musician or two, and it really can make a noticeable difference. The difference by just adding a live harp, for instance...

[allofmylife]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 4:32pm

zzannhhk

I knew there would be people here to help you. This is an amzingly varied forum.

Go ahead with the a cappella show. If it's good enough, some producer will fgure out a way to mount it.

That's what's so great about Broadway.

[zzannahk]

Posted: 7/4/06 at 11:20pm

thanks, i'll keep you all posted as to how it works out, this may be my life's work.

[Yeah, um, no.]

Posted: 7/5/06 at 11:02am

"Why does the New Amsterdam have a special clause requiring 19 musicians for productions by BVTVI (I assume that's Buena Vista Theatrical Ventures, Inc.)?"

Because it's Disney. They have a special Equity production contract as well, apart from the contract that every other Broadway production follows.

As for the AFofM, I'm sure they're open to granting some sort of waiver for an a capella show that uses no recorded music, as opposed to a show that is looking to replace musicians with computers.
Production Rulebook (Disney Theatrical Productions) 04-08