Minor Question About a Random Song Lyric in "Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812"

Nope, you're pretty much right. On the cast recording and in every production, Helene seems to have been instructed to pronounce "charmante" as "shar-mon-tay," which is incorrect. (I also had to look it up in the libretto after hearing it a few times and not being able to work it out. ) In spoken French the final "e" would be totally silent, while in sung French it could be pronounced as a separate syllable, but that would come out sounding more like "shar-mon-tuh" and certainly not whatever the heck she sings in the show. It's the one bit of French used in the show that really bugs the crap out of me, mostly because she repeats it like twenty times... >__<

Sure, I guess that's a possible reading in the context of the musical, though the book makes it pretty clear that high-class Russians of that time were speaking fluent French all the time at court. Since Helene is quite the toast of society in the book, I would think her French would've been perfect...Honestly, I always just thought they found it was easier to pronounce "shar-mon-tay" while singing than "shar-mon-tuh," but it was something I had hoped they might change for the Boston production. They did not, so yeah, maybe there's supposed to be some underlying point there...?

Lol, I'm not sure what being a slut has to do with one's ability to pronounce French properly. I've no doubt there are a good number of sluts in France and elsewhere who are perfectly capable of pronouncing "charmante." That said, if they are intending to make the joke that she's dumb and hence her French sucks, wouldn't that joke only really land if the majority of the audience knows French enough to catch it...? As for "Charming" itself, murky French aside, I agree that it is really a "charmante" song. :)

You speak Russian as your native language and get those damn French pronunciations right.

Yeah, I did notice the change of pronunciation of "Moscow" in the Boston production, which I can't really comment on since I know zero Russian. And it's funny, because I remember wondering before seeing that production whether they would work more with some of the cast on their French, esp. Lucas Steele, and when I saw it, it seemed to me that they actually did, because Steele seemed to handle his French lines a bit better than he does on the recording (the line in the opera box scene, "What makes a town special, ce sont les jolies femmes, isn't that so?" still makes me cringe a bit when I listen to the recording). And it's also weird that Helene's other French line in "Charming" ("Alliez dans le monde plutôt que de dépérir d'ennui!" also has pretty iffy pronunciation at times, but at least it sounds like they're trying to have her go for proper pronunciation. So why the wackiness on "charmante"? I dunno, they like it that way, obviously.

As for book!Helene, yeah, she's said to be stupid, but also clever enough to hide her stupid--all she has to do is keep quiet and everyone thinks she's "deep." The thing is, while she is in a marriage that she thinks will bring her advantage, she's not really after a title (I mean, she was already born a princess), but after Pierre's money. It's not high breeding that she lacks, hence I still don't really think her French would suck. This is the book I'm talking about here, of course--the musical could be argued to be its own thing (I mean, look at how many fundamental personality changes were made to characters like Eponine and Enjolras in adapting Les Mis from book to musical...).

I remember the late Peter Jennings explaining, "There is no 'cow' in Moscow," and I've pronounced it "koh" ever since, which many people have pushed back on.

henrikegerman said: "I don't know the score - I know, I should! - but could it be that Helene - wrongly! - is affecting a three syllable word meaning "I am charmed" - akin to the "I am enchanted" of the three syllable en-chan-te? (yes, the correct word would be the two syllable char-me, but perhaps Helene is being vacuous or merely silly and inventive or perhaps that she's, though fluent, a bit of a Malaprop)"

This is actually what I thought too, until I saw this thread.

It should also be pointed out that Russians don't call the town "Moscow" at all, but rather "Mockba" which is pronounced mahs-KVAH (with the emphasis on the second syllable).

How that became "Moscow" to English speakers is unknown, particularly as it's very easy for us to pronounce (unlike, say, "München," the German name for what we call "Munich".

Updated On: 1/6/16 at 02:25 PM

henrikegerman said: "I don't know the score - I know, I should! - but could it be that Helene - wrongly! - is affecting a three syllable word meaning "I am charmed" - akin to the "I am enchanted" of the three syllable en-chan-te? (yes, the correct word would be the two syllable char-me, but perhaps Helene is being vacuous or merely silly and inventive or perhaps that she's, though fluent, a bit of a Malaprop)"

I actually thought exactly this the first time I heard the song, like, 'oh ****, is there some verb charmanter that I've never heard of, and this is the adjectival form...?' That's exactly what it sounds like it should be, phonetically. But if this is what they were going for, it would be spelled "charmantée" in the libretto, and it's not. The libretto provided in the CD booklet is actually pretty good with its accents on the French words, IIRC, and I remember when I looked this one up, fully expecting to see something like charmantée, nope, it was written just plain charmante, as in the feminine form of charmant, as in the French word for, well, "charming." Which to me says it's the pronunciation that's off.

I don't have an answer for this question, really. All I know is that there's something weird about the French, be it by mistake or by intent.

It's only reasonable to assume. What sense does it make otherwise? If it's a fake word, why not write it that way, instead of writing it as a real word mispronounced?

This is a specific lyric, tho, right?

Thanks everyone who responded. It's been very interesting hearing your ideas.