12-step programs.- Page 2

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 2:30pm

Go SNAFU!!! I hit 18 years myself this past Monday much in the same way as you. I fell head first into the structure of it. I did everything they told me to do, without regard to how I felt about it.

After four years spent in church basements learning how to deal with feelings and people and honesty and life, it began to occur to me that I needed to leave those basements and step out into that life. I haven't been to a meeting since then. But I don't think I could have done it without those 4 years.

Dg, I consider myself an agnostic and your's is the basic definition I use. I generally don't even think about it, now. I just worry about what I do and who I am and I let my higher power, if it exists, worry about what it is. The step says, "We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves..." I looked at that as a process of coming to terms with what I believe. In the meantime, I acted "as if" I believed. That worked for me. Everybody has to find their own way into it. Hang in there.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 2:33pm

I was being generous with the 25%, PJ.

And seriously, whatever works for people is great. I was just responding to the original post, and I think the "higher power" issue is not as easily ignored or worked around by somebody like DG.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 2:49pm

12-groups are easy to hate, easy to target.

I just want to clarify that I wasn't hating on 12 Step Groups. Actually, I don't think anyone in this thread was. I know a great many people have been helped by them, and I agree with the sentiment that "whatever it takes" is valid. I just know that my personal belief system would stand in my way if I were in 12 Step Program, because I wouldn't be able to reconcile the god stuff.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:11pm

Congrats Artscallion! It is always wonderful to hear of someone else who has long term recovery time under their belt!
Sometimes the "Higher Power Problem" can be just another intellectualized reason why someone won't try recovery or give the Program a chance. I wrapped myself in that quandry when I was starting out and was told by people, "Screw the god or higher power, substitute the group or a freaking can of Coke or anything to relinquish your power to! You have been trying your best to be in control and look where it has brought you!". For me, truer words were never spoken and after getting my ass kicked a few more times I finally tried it. I guess looking back on it it was just a way of obtaining some humility, that I had to understand sometimes I needed help from outside.
What worked for me doesn't work for everyone as the stats prove, but, nothing ventured nothing gained

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:16pm

I just want to interject that I am impressed by and grateful to everyone who has opened up on this thread about how they have overcome their addictions. It's inspiring and truly moving.

You all have my respect and admiration.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:37pm

Here, here, Miss P! And good for you, ArtScallion.

The ultimate answer for the higher-power question is Snafu's friend's "You have been trying your best to be in control and look where it has brought you!"

If you're in control and everything's fine, fine. If you're in control but you're also addicted, broke and co-dependent, a little humility might help.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:42pm

Or even if you're just addicted and co-dependent.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:43pm

But broke is even worse.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:44pm

Is there a 12-Step program for posting on message boards?

:)

Updated On: 11/28/07 at 03:44 PM

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:44pm

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, Namo.

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:50pm

"Is there a 12-Step program for posting on message boards?"


Yes, BWWAA. Say it out loud. Yup, just like the maniacal laugh.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:52pm

Step One:

We admitted we were powerless over posting on message boards- that our lives had become unmanageable

Updated On: 11/28/07 at 03:52 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 3:56pm

This is really a fascinating discussion, and I want to add my thanks to everyone who has spoken so candidly in here about their struggles to overcome addiction.

As someone who hasn't been in a program and doesn't forsee the need for me to be in one any time soon, I realize that I'm sort of an outsider looking in. I just want to again reiterate that I have no issue with recovery programs in general, but it's still hard for me to reconcile all the god stuff, especially when I tend to believe that religion exploits people who are vulnerable and co-dependant.

I get what Snafu is saying, though, about how the higher power obstacle being an excuse to avoid treatment, and I think it's great those of you who don't believe in God could make it work, but I find this similar to the big brouhaha that's been going on about "the moment of silence" in schools in Chicago (I'm not sure if this is something national or if it's just Illinois schools) and how it's proponents swear up and down that it's not meant to encourage prayer. If it looks like a crucifix and it walks like a crucifix, you know?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 4:01pm

it's still hard for me to reconcile all the god stuff, especially when I tend to believe that religion exploits people who are vulnerable and co-dependant.

The Higher Power That Exploits People(tm) is not the higher power that people in 12-step groups call on.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 4:12pm

Phyllis yes, I can see your problem with the religious aspect. Believe me, I know how suspicious I was (and am) about the religious overtones of the twelve step programs. But ultimatly, when it comes down to a matter of my own life or death (and I am not being overly dramatic here) and the damage wreaked upon my family and loved ones, I can easily close my eyes to the God aspect and do what I can using whatever tools presented me to get better.
Like Artscallion I needed that structure to get on my feet, I out grew it in about the same time frame as he and moved on, taking with me only those practices which helped me remain sober. God stayed in the church basement, I did not.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 4:18pm

"The Higher Power That Exploits People(tm) is not the higher power that people in 12-step groups call on."

Now, Peej, you're overcompensating. If this so-called Higher Power can be whatever the person believes in or not (including but not limited to a can of Coke), then you can bet there has to be some serious overlap between those who "believe" in that version and people in 12 step programs.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 4:41pm

the higher power (god, just f*cking say it) has told me that he will be exacting his vengeance on those who refuse to acknowledge him by foisting oddly chosen addictions upon them. for example, namo will soon develop an insatiable desire for straight porn and budweiser that will threaten his very core beliefs.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 4:53pm

Yes, but there is also some serious overlap between those who believe in a higher power that is a goddess or the Buddha and people in 12 step programs.

The point is that it's silly to avoid the help that 12-step philosophy can lend because of the Crusades or the Inquisition or the Catholic Church's attitudes toward birth control, homosexuality or abortion.

There are gay 12-step groups and Unitarian-Universalist 12-step groups and even Pagan 12-step groups, which eliminate 3 steps:

===

THE NINE-STEP FREEDOM TRAIL

1) We came to feel enslaved by excessive behaviors which were harmful to us, throwing our health and relationships out of balance through addictions, compulsions, or both.

2) We realized that resources were available to help us win our freedom, if we were willing to use them.

3) We became willing to reach out for help, physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

4) We sought help from our Deities, fellow humans, healers, clergy, groups, or whatever source necessary, to aid us toward freedom and health.

5) We established a pattern of life-affirming behaviors, avoiding the sorts of isolation which would make us vulnerable to relapses, creating a foundation of supports which could help us recover from whatever lapses we might have.

6) We considered, acknowledged, and took full responsibility for the harm we had done to others and ourselves in the time of our slavery.

7) We considered and discussed with a neutral adult, the harm we had done, and how we might make restitution or otherwise restore balance, facing the fact that in some situations no direct redress was possible.

Where possible, and using whatever supports necessary, we endeavored to restore balance in those situations and relationships previously harmed by our servitude to addiction or compulsion.

9) Remaining constructively vigilant in our self-regard, we continued to grow strong in health and freedom, eventually becoming a source of support for others seeking to bring their own lives into healthy balance.
A Pagan Alternative to Christian 12 Step Groups

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 5:00pm

That eighth step is as cool as Corey Hart!

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 5:02pm

But paganism still identifies deities as the source of higher power, subjagating the human condition.

The question remains, is there a particular recovery plan that does not base itself in the concept of either poly or monotheistic higher power?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 5:16pm

I'm still thinking about the group that DD went to that used the Lord's prayer, which muddies the waters even more in my opinion. Unless I'm mistaken, that's a Christian prayer, right? Other religions don't use it, do they?

I've also been thinking more about the argument that not wanting to be a part of a 12 Step Program because of it's ties to religion (and more specifically, Christianity) being an excuse and the more I think about that, the less I'm sure. I don't particularly care for anything that suggests I have to turn things over to the will of god.


Updated On: 11/28/07 at 05:16 PM

[SNAFU]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 5:48pm

Is it turning over to the will of God or just letting go? We cannot control the world, Alcoholics and drug addicts have by nature, a control issue. Learning to relinquish control, taking the actions which we know are the right ones to a better health and letting go of the outcome is what it is about. Becoming to realize that the only thing you have control over are your own actions.
There will always be groups like the ones that DD went to and there are many other groups out there, as well, with as many takes on the principles as there are members. Don't like the added B.S.? Then don't go to that group, find another. Don't let the B.S. of one particular group stop you from searching. Hopefully you will never find yourself in the need for a 12 Step Program. For some they are the only lifeline from a very unattractive end.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 5:51pm

Is it turning over to the will of God or just letting go?

I don't know. I really don't. My thoughts are that if it were just about letting go there wouldn't be a need to mention god at all.

[MotorTink]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 6:51pm

I come from a family chock full of recovering or non quite yet recovering alcoholics. My father has been battling with it my entire life. He first tried to "sober up" when I was about 5 and lasted until I was about 12, lapsed in and out, and has now been recovering for another seven successful years. I pretty much was raised in AA meetings, attending every Friday and Sunday nights. My brother is battling it right now. He hit "rock bottom" and thought he sobered up on his own, but really just simply stopped drinking for about two years and is now back and headed right back down the road.

For the members of this forum that are successfully recovering, congrats and I admire you so much. For anyone trying to take the first steps to recovery, I wish you much success! One day at a time.

[DG]

Posted: 11/28/07 at 10:04pm

From the AA website:

"A.A. suggests that to achieve and maintain sobriety, alcoholics need to accept and depend upon another Power recognized as greater than themselves. Some alcoholics choose to consider the A.A. group itself as the power greater than themselves; for many others, this Power is God — as they, individually, understand Him; still others rely upon entirely different concepts of a Higher Power.

Some alcoholics, when they first turn to A.A., have definite reservations about accepting any concept of a Power greater than themselves. Experience shows that, if they will keep an open mind on the subject and keep coming to A.A. meetings, they are not likely to have too difficult a time in working out an acceptable solution to this distinctly personal problem."

I guess this is where my problem really is. I'm so ingrained with the concept of self-determination, that to approach the thought of inability is rather . . . difficult. At the present time, I understand that my capacity to make rational and healthful decisions is hindered - and that's why I've gone back into intensive talk therapy, which is truly revealing the reasons I choose to self-medicate.

It just seems to me that creating a mindset that you are personally incapable of getting on top of that which causes you to drink/smoke/whatever is too far outside of what I already believe. It places too much emphasis on intangibles, while ignoring the real power that you can employ (which is admittedly disengaged enough to allow you to self-inflict such harm.)