Being Gay and Religion.......your feedback is needed.- Page 2

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:19pm

I'm always impressed with people who can reconcile their homosexuality with their religious beliefs. Perhaps, as an atheist, I don't have a right to weigh in on this discussion, but what the hell.

I'm always confounded when anyone picks and chooses what they think is acceptable in regard to their religion, whether it's acting on their homosexual desires, having pre-marital sex, etc. Granted, there are arguments that Leviticus isn't actually condemning same sex relations (frankly, with it's "Lie with a man as you would a woman," it always seemed more like a condemnation of bisexuality, but that's just me), but I don't see people arguing that the ten commandments were mistranslated.

I've also heard the argument now that it's not that being gay is wrong, it's acting on it (since homosexuals can never have sex in god-sanctioned wedlock). The argument is that the homosexuality is real and given by god, but it's a test for the person who is homosexual, as they are not supposed to act on these "sinful" desires.


This is in response to MTVMANN's "Still all sins are forgiven, and all you have to do to reach heaven is to believe that Jesus died for you sins and ask him to be your personal lord and savior, which I have done." I think that really depends on the religion. As a former Catholic, I know that confession is important to that religion. Simply accepting Christ as your savoir ain't gonna get you to heaven. You've got to keep your slate clean by getting a priest to wipe out all your sins with confession.

[Plum]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:33pm

As a small side note, I don't get why people won't type god. It's not the name of god. It's like saying "elohim" in Hebrew. I refuse to say "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance, but that's another issue.

And there's an old joke- in every town with Jews, you'll have at least 3 synagogues. The one you go to, the one you used to go to, and the one you'd never set foot in. My old town had rather more than that, and my family switched twice in order to find the right place. (Conservative, but not conservative.) I can't imagine what it's like for people in one-church towns.

[tacos are great]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:45pm

I'm in a one-church southern baptist town.

I'm under 18, so if I ever came out, I'd be entered into conversion therapy. I don't know what would happen if that didn't work. They'd probably lynch me.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:49pm

Tacos, when you are a few years older, find your way up here to NY. You need a more liberal place to live and I'll put you up until you get yourself settled. Meanwhile, do what's best to survive and know that you have people here at BWW to talk to an PM when you need advice.

[xM3L24x]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:52pm

I'm glad that I live in NY because things are more accepted up here, and my parents are very loving. I once asked htem what they would do if my brother turned out to be gay (he's only 9) and my mom was like what can i do? thats who he is..and ill love him no matter what. I think that religions should be accepting of everybody, and if there not..why would you want to be apart of that religion?

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:54pm

Religion is generally about adhering to god's laws. I think it's a very modern notion that religion is supposed to be about "acceptance."

[Becky2]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:55pm

I think it's perfectly fine for someone to maintain their religious beliefs and be gay. I know people will say it's a sin, but since when is it an unforgivable sin? Besides, we all sin; who has never lusted before? Who has never lied before?

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:58pm

It is important to remember that we have all been made by God, and God doesn't make junk.

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:00pm

If a sin's a sin, as people have been saying, what's the point of anything being called a sin at all. If sodomy and murder are both sins of equal weight, what does it matter then?

It's been my understanding that one must repent for their sins to be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. If you're willfully committing a sin by committing a homosexual act, how can you get to heaven without repenting? If you repent, how can you keep committing the homosexual act?

I don't mean to be flip or disrespectful here. I really want to know.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:05pm

I also don't think that religion and homosexuality should be compared.
Some religions find it wrong- however, you are what you are and religion on no religion you are still going to be what you are.

I'm not about to get into the whole nature vrs. nurture thing. But, it seems to me that those who believe homosexuality is wrong are the ones that are ubberly religious. They obviously think homosexuality is a 'wrong' choice that people make.

I am not a religious person to any extent; I am Jewish though. I also am straight. Although I have not really brought the subject up with my parents, I think that they wouldn't have much as a problem with the fact of homosexuality as much as they would of 'living a "normal" life.'
Normal is only a word to which people make a definition so I don't think that 'living a "normal" life' really makes sence.

Judgements are made way to often of those who are different. I guess you can say that homosexuality is different. On the other hand, nobody is "not different"- (for lack of a better word.) We are all unique. People who are mentally challenged are different. People who are double jointed are different. People who dress gothic are different. Overacheives are different. I don't think homosexuality is any more different than mentally challenged, double jointed, gothic or overacheives. Much of society, for some reason, came to believe that homosexulaity is wrong. Why this came to be rather than something else that is 'different,' we probably will never know.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:09pm

The Bible doesn't say anything about gay sex--that is, sex between two gay people. It says it's wrong for a man to sleep with another man. The reference is to heterosexual men who forced their slaves into having sex with them. It was also common for Roman soldiers to have sex with each other--even though they were supposedly "heterosexual". The Old Testament also talks about how wrong it is for a man to "spill his seed".

Jesus Christ never said anything about gay relationships. St. Paul, on the other hand, says it's wrong, but St. Paul had a distorted view of the Second Coming of Christ and a distorted view of Christianity as well. By the way, what was that "thorn in his side" that he spoke of?

Updated On: 1/15/06 at 05:09 PM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:20pm

Kringas, the essential tenant of Christianity starts with the notion that we have all been born into the world with a "sin nature" (in much the same way that we inherit physical traits of our family, we also inherit the sin nature -- because we are all Adam and Eve's babies). God created a world that functions perfectly unless sin is involved -- and when sin comes around, the result is death. Only, Jesus' death, cause He was God incarnate, covered all of our sins instead -- so we don't have to live lives or die deaths that will seperate us from the non-sin that is God. But, sin has two effects: (1) the current effect of seperating us from God, and (2) an eternal effect of God not being able to be around us -- cause God doesn't mix with sin. So, the way we can get over that second effect is to tell God to look at Christ's punishment -- the "accept Jesus as our Savior" part. That still doesn't take away part 1 of sin's effect, but it does allow God to be with us.

So, we call things "sins" because we have to name the thing that keeps us seperate from God. BUt,what we do has little to do with whether we are saved from the punishment of sin (some Xian theologians would disagree with that).

However, I would contend that being gay is not a sin -- because it is love, and the only sin is what is not love. In fact, it is the perfect expression of love -- loving someone despite what the world says is right or good.

Ok...I should stop...I could write about this forever.

[jimmirae]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 6:14pm

Dollypop is right. I studied that book many years so nobody could ever throw it at me. If Jesus be the "Son of God", In his whole time here he NEVER said a word regarding homosexuality as a sin. In fact, He chose a group of 12 and even took up with a woman they were about to stone to death saying she was a whore. These were thos he was closest to and loved, although he loved everyone.
If God had any big problems with homosexuality as they will tell you today, You can be sure that Jesus would have made it clear. The only ones who have problems with us are folks like Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn and even Paul Crouch who loves gay sex. The reason being is that if they love us, The other Pious, Hateful & Devout wont send them any more money for their "Ministries of Hatred" which is how they keep the Rolls and The Mansions and live in such Luxury.
Most of these "Pastors" do not even preach the words of Jesus, But they are in fact, "Paulines", and stick to the popular views of "The Apostle Paul" who before he changed his name for big business was really "Saul, the Christian Killer" who killed the first Martyr (Stephen) and was present at the crucifixion of Jesus, Most likely being entertained. His claim to fame was meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus when in fact, They never met at all. Paul/Saul was a man of violence & hatred, Much like his modern day counterparts. His idea was to use "Religion" for profit and to control the masses.
And by the way, In closing I want to thank Dollypop again for his information which was right on target, and I would like to drop a fact that Mr. Benny Hinn NEVER met his idol Kathryn Kuhlman, NEVER. I, however, DID meet Kathryn Kuhlman and did not feel the need to steal her "Act", like Benny Hinn DID INDEED do. To hear this manspeak as though she were his best friend makes me want to spit, or stutter - which Benny Hinn does do, Indeed!
Who needs Religion with such conditions when Jesus only taught us Love Without Conditions! He was a Great Rabbi! And Dollypop, You are a very wise Man, Indeed. (Please forgive any typos, I'm not wearing my glasses)

[Millie42]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 6:23pm

An old pastor of mine once said something that stuck with me (fill in your own religious affiliation):
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.

I think it's important for people to remember the difference between the church and the faith itself.
I go to church because I like hearing another person interpret a piece of scripture, enjoy worshiping through song with others, and need that level of accountability that comes with forming a church family. However, those that put their faith entirely in the institution, rather than the Word, are the reason religion gets a bad reputation.

The concept of acceptance and being non-judgemental is lost on many, but please remember that these people should not stop you from pursuing a relationship with God.

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 6:39pm

Kringas,
I'm Protestant, not Catholic so I/we don't believe that we have to confess our sins to a priest, but rather ask God to forgive us of our sins in prayer.

I assume your gay and from my experience it's always the gay people who were raised Catholic that have the hardest time. I've heard this saying many times "Well, I was raised Catholic". Anyways, I think they have the hardest time.

But I'm glad to read about your experiences Dollypop!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:03pm

Yenta--please take a few minutes to look at the website for the gay and lesbian synagogue here in New York, Congregation Beth Simchat Torah. The website--especially the texts of Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum's "drashes"--will give you much food for thought.

---

Congregation Beth Simchat Torah is New York City’s synagogue for the New York metropolitan area’s 200,000 gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Jews, as well as our families and friends. Founded in 1973, and under the leadership of Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum since 1992, CBST has become the largest GLBT synagogue in the world and arguably one of the most influential. CBST is an important voice in Judaism; in the worldwide discourse on the nature of religious community; and in the movement to secure basic civil rights for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in the United States and throughout the world.
Congregation Beth Simchat Torah

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:06pm

I assume your gay and from my experience it's always the gay people who were raised Catholic that have the hardest time

Yes, I am gay, but I think a lot of people (gay and straight) who were raised Catholic have a hard time. I know Catholicism works for a lot of people, but the scars tend to be deep and vast for those it doesn't.


Touchme- Again, take this with the knowledge that I was raised Catholic, so other forms of Christianity are fairly foreign to me - What I get from your reading is that if one accepts Jesus Christ as his personal savior, then essentially all "sins" yet to be committed are covered? If so, in non-Catholic theology, does that mean that Hell is only reserved for those who have not accepted Christ as their lord and savior?

Again, I'm not out to mock anyone's beliefs. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of where you are coming from. I appreciate the further explanations from Dollypop, touchmeinthemorning , and MTVMANN (among others). I find this truly fascinating.

Updated On: 1/15/06 at 07:06 PM

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:09pm

Just for the record: Yenta is not gay. She (as so many people on this site are) is "gay friendly".

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:20pm

I haven't read the posts on this thread--so I apologize if I repeat something others have already said. Just wanted to give my two cents (I'll read the thread later). :)

Not everyone agrees that the Bible or Old Testament has been translated correctly. New Bibles use the word homosexual in places that should say pedophilia or rape, for example. It's too complicated, but the bottom line is that even if God was talking about homosexuality as we know it, it is mentioned so few times--and never by Jesus (I know that last part doesn't aid you, Grovers).

People pick and choose what is important--let's launch a war on gays getting married, but allow the divorce rate to be 50%. Let's ban sodomy, but not adultery. I could go on, but as we all know from this past holiday season where the word Christmas was way more important to some people than people out in the cold or starving, some religious folks have the priorities all out of whack.

And, furthermore, there are plenty of gay churches and synagogues, etc. If you know better, why not choose one of these places to attend?

But, this is all coming from an agnostic who used to be a holy roller in his youth. The more I learn about religion, the less religion has a place in my life. It's just hogwash--I don't mean to offend with that statement, I just don't how anyone can take one religion so seriously when you could have easily been born into another religion's household and would believe that religion is the correct one.

Now god or God? That's something I could handle learning about the rest of my life. I'm down with God being Mother Earthlike.

And, I have never believed I am going to hell for being gay. A slut? Possibly!

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:27pm

Jerby, don't take this the wrong way, but perhaps you should investigate other religions. I can understand how bad experiences can affect one's feelings towards other religions, but don't wipe them all out of your life because of it.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:31pm

That's my point, DP. I have looked at all of these religions and feel it is foolish to act like only one is the correct one. I refuse to choose any one of them.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:31pm

Also Yenta, if you've never seen it before, you should watch Tembling Before God, an excellent documentary about gay and lesbian Orthodox and Hassidic Jews.



I believe Akiva has written very movingly about this film in the past.
Trembling Before G-D

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:33pm

That is an excellent documentary.

[DBillyP]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:33pm

Dolly, my understanding is that Paul also did not mention homosexuality as we understand it; rather, he was referring to same-sex temple prostitution. For a more in-depth, yet readable, discussion, please see the link, which I have posted before.

Kringas, as for the question of repentance, salvation is a gift of grace and is freely given. There is nothing that we need to do in order to receive or accept it. There is a wonderful book on the subject called IF GRACE IS TRUE: WHY GOD WILL SAVE EVERY PERSON by James Mulholland and Philip Gulley.
Homosexuality and Christianity

[DBillyP]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 7:38pm

Pal, I was going to suggest the film as well. It is fascinating.