God and Man - or not.- Page 2

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:29pm

well now, they don't want to keep them too poor otherwise they won't have nothing to give to the church.

[javero]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:31pm

Oh...the brothers are back at it again. Christopher was peddling his book on Bill Mahrer's show a few weeks back. He and his brother are shaping up to be the Gore Vidal & William F. Buckley, Jr. of the Internet age.

[lildogs]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:35pm

Yeah, papa, but the church also accepts physical labor in lieu of tithes--somebody's gotta carve those gargoyles!

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:38pm

some churches accept favors of other sorts, too.

priest, anyone?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:40pm

um, touch, these cassocks were only built for one.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:43pm

Okay, time for me to speak up. **clears throat**

First off, let me say that I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus was the Son of God and he died on the cross to save us and give us eternal life. Now, with that being said, I also agree with a few people on this thread that say that religion is used to dominate those and is abused by some in power. But, this is not always the case. I do not see myself as being dominated over because I believe there is a God and Jesus is the Son of God and there is a Heaven. Above all, I have a choice. When I read the Bible or a preacher preaches on what the Bible says, I have the choice to form an opinion or belief on what is being read. For example, I believe that *some* things in the Bible are not literal. I do not believe that Hell is going to be people burning in a fire for all of eternity. To burn is a human feeling caused by the nerves under the skin. But, it telling it like that, gives people an emotional response. NO ONE wants to burn and it is seen as a horrible thing. I believe Hell is going to be a void of all happiness and all someone will experience is dread and loneliness. Now, this is MY belief. I know many on this board are not Christians and even tend to joke and bash Christianity because things have happened in your lives that caused this reaction (being thrown out of churches because you are gay, being persecuted on a daily basis, etc.). People in the Christian faith tend to follow the teachings of everyone else BUT Jesus, and that, in my opinion, is where it all goes wrong. Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself. Not, "Love your neighbor, only if they believe in the same things you do." And, as mentioned earlier, some people use religion to start wars and enslave people's thinkings. But, that is the person's doing, not Christianity in general. And another thing . . . I don't believe in religion. What I believe in, is faith in something that I have taken to be truth. You may not have the same faith as me, and that is fine. Each person has to think for themselves and find what is right for them. I can not speak for the population of Christian believers, because I am not the whole population. I can only speak for one person and that is DJ. And what I hold to be truth is something that I believe with all of my heart.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:50pm

spider, yer totally going to hell. it will be a lake of fire.

[lildogs]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:52pm

Tha's not the kind of domination I'm talking about spider--not making you do things--but rather keeping you from doing other things--like rising up against the powers that be.

It also keeps societies in line. Why not kill? Cause you'll go to hell. Authorities reason that if people didn't believe in God, they'd be capable of anything--including revolting against the church which owns vast fortunes while its followers live in poverty. The church keeps its property and knick-knacks, people think they're doing the right thing, everybody's happy.

The only problem is, people ARE capable of monstrous acts while believing in god, so it's not a perfect system, but it's been working pretty well for the past 2000 years. At least for The Man, if not for man.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 2:59pm

Again, these are people who use religion to get their ways. Like I said, I am AGAINST religion. People have taken what Jesus and the Bible said and twisted it into something that they can use to oppress others. That is not God's fault or the Christian faith's fault. People keep saying that evil things have been done in the name of God and you are 100% correct . . . it has. But, many things that are good have been done in the name of God as well. People are lumping the whole Christian faith and it's believers by those that use God's name of evil and hatred, which is my whole problem with these type of discussions and these books being written about the subject. Instead of giving both sides of the coin, it is always that Christianity is used to enslave people and cause wars, and so on. Yes, it happens but like I said, there is another side to that coin. There are those that actually follow what the Bible says and follow it's teachings to honor God and help their fellow man. THOSE are the true Christians.


And can you explain what you said in your post about "like rising up against the powers that be." I don't fully understand what you mean.

[lildogs]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 3:17pm

It's my commie leanings, but think of it this way:

You're a laborer in Italy, living in poverty. You're taught from a young age at school that if you believe in Jesus, you'll have eternal life and that the toils you face in this present life will be rewarded in heaven. So you go work your menial job, try to support your family and eventually die--all the while giving to the church, attending mass, etc.

Now suppose this laborer DIDN'T believe in God. He works his menial job but notices that the church officials don't work at all and live in splendor and don't pay taxes. This worker starts to think "Why does the church have so much if it is for the people? Why does it have so much property and wealth if Christ eschewed such worldly possessions?" And these thoughts lead him to think the church doesn't have any special powers at all and it's power wholly imagined.

Without fear of eternal damnation or punishment, the laborer decides to redistribute the wealth of the church and tells others of what he has discovered--they all decide that living in poverty is for the birds and that the priests don't know anything they don't and they decide to live like priests instead of cattle and they take over the property of the church.

It's the same reason that the US government would cover up the existence of UFOs--such information would cause people to question their moral systems, which can only hurt those in power. If people question the origin of life, they will naturally question the order of society--when power is questioned, it is almost always weakened.

Does that make sense or just more of my usual BS?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 3:41pm

No, it makes sense.

But again, you are looking at the CHURCH and not Christianity in general. Actually, I think you are talking about more of the Catholic Church, by the way you worded things. But, anyway . . .

It all comes down to choice and faith. People have faith in the teachings of the CHURCH and that is their faith. But, like I said in one of my posts . . . people ALWAYS has the choice to come to their own conclusion of how things should be done. Mass . . . giving money to the church . . . etc. does not a Christian make. Only one thing, and one alone, makes you a Christian. Now, to live "Christ like" is the mission (or should be) of Christians, but you have those that use it to reap benefits for themselves. In the days of slavery, people used the Bible to give reason why it was okay to own slaves. You can twist anything to support your agenda. But, once again, you have a choice. People have a choice to stand up and say "that's not right. We need to change this" but usually people don't. I believe that I have a spot in Heaven, but that doesn't stop me from bettering myself or loving others. If what you, and others, say is true about Christians, I would not be on this message board, or even be agreeing with you about things. I would be like that idiots that come on here and bash everyone because they do not believe in God. To me, that is a choice that you have to make for yourself, and if you don't believe in what I believe, then it's fine. Everyone has to find what is right for them.

I am starting to ramble, but like I said at the beginning of this post . . . . It seems like you have more of a problem with the structure and rulings of the CHURCH then you do with the Christian faith as a whole (see, I didn't put "religion"). It's like a lot of things. In theory, it is a great thing, but when you put people into the mix, it has the potential to go very bad (which, as history shows, it has). But, I want to put it out there that not all Christians are like those that you speak of or the Phelps, or whoever.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:06pm

"Why not kill? Cause you'll go to hell."

Right. Because before man invented god it was nothing but murder, murder, murder, right? Wrong. There are a whole host of evolutionary reasons that murder was considered wrong long before some imaginary entity was created to dole out rewards in the afterlife as long as humans "believed" in Him.

"I believe Hell is going to be a void of all happiness and all someone will experience is dread and loneliness."

Wow, that's really something. Look, spider, we all would like to believe that we survive death. So we invent all sorts of ways to convince ourselves that we're going to do so. We believe in God! We do good! We deserve it for so many reasons! What's funny is how so many people create these scenarios and do what they have to to imagine that they qualify. But my hat's off to you for not only believing in Heaven, but for imagining a Hell that's more palatable to your imagination than the usual garden variety fire and pitchfork versions.

I only wish you had gone all the way and described an empty place WITH NO CAST RECORDINGS!

Updated On: 6/4/07 at 04:06 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:18pm

what about soundtracks?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:20pm

Hell is where people listen to original cast recordings and call them "soundtracks." It's HORRIBLE.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:20pm

And you believe that God is an imaginary being. If you are entitled to believe that, then why am I not entitled to believe in what I want to? I didn't say it to slam my beliefs into people's faces, I said it to make a point that people have the ability to think for themselves and make their own conclusions. That is the conclusion I have made for myself and you have a different one. So what? Both of are entitled to it and should be left at that.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:28pm

no, namo, hell, hell is for children.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 4:29pm

Nice Pat Benetar reference

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 8:28pm

That there is no god is not the same as believing "that God is an imaginary being."

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 8:33pm

Oh, I'm sorry. I read one of your earlier comments wrong (I'm not being sarcastic, I am serious).

[MatthewAddison]

Posted: 6/4/07 at 8:55pm

Currently reading Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris. (It IS like reading CliffsNotes. It's a very easy read.)

I bought god is not Great, but haven't started reading it.

I'm fascinated with the arguments on both sides.

I'm not adding anything intellectual to this thread, but support for its existence. If I have something profound to add, I'll chime in.

Updated On: 6/4/07 at 08:55 PM

[DG]

Posted: 6/5/07 at 12:50am

"I believe that Jesus was the Son of God and he died on the cross to save us and give us eternal life."

This is the type of thing that I never know what to do with. I'm too much of an empiricist. I have no more inclination to accept this mythology than I do the ones of the Greeks and Romans. And DJ, I really am not saying this to be disrespectful - I seriously just never know what to say.

To quote the priest from JEFFREY - "Those people out there are worshiping resurections and virgin births, and you think I'M crazy?!?"

I keep trying to come to an understanding of how such disparate viewpoints can find a way to co-exist. I know there are many like DJ who believe that their own brand of belief leaves them in a place of non-judgement, which is all well and good. BUT, the fact remains that belief in this story is the foundation of Christianity, which finds its voice and power in the here and now through religion. And those religions are all about judgement - it's how they operate and how they continue to thrive.

That's a pretty difficult perspective to find a place for alongside my own secular humanist one.
Updated On: 6/5/07 at 12:50 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/5/07 at 8:52am

Ah mythology.

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

The third day he rose again from the dead:

He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

I believe in the Holy Ghost:

I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

The forgiveness of sins:

The resurrection of the body:

And the life everlasting. Amen.

"Born of the Virgin Mary" is one of the longest-lasting typos in human history.

[RobbO]

Posted: 6/5/07 at 9:01am

play ball!