If lesbians rule in daytime ... then let 'em marry.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:18am

Mario Cantone did a funny recap of the daytime Emmys on The View, and told the gals the only way to win is to start sleeping with one another,i.e.look at the ratings and Emmy success of Rosie and Ellen. He was being glib, but inadvertently scored a point about our hypocritical society. We invite lesbians into our home daily, to entertain, honor our comfort zones, and raise a bit of domestic consciousness (Rosie was a combo b'way show queen, Martha Stewart manque, and kids rights advocate.) But polls show "most" Americans prefer that she not be given the same rights as others, particularly re marriage. (To those who say Rosie was in the closet during most of her show, remember, tho her numbers had fallen, her demos -- which determine advertising rates -- held after she came out on Dateline. A pal has the stats.)

Historically, this perhaps mirrors the civil rights movement, when white people loved to see black folks sing, dance, sometimes act, but really didn't want 'em in their nabe or going to school with their kids. One might argue that Ellen makes no "point" of her being gay. But she mines it for a lot of deadpan humor, particularly when interviewing hunks with a calculated indifference. The audience "knowing" is part of the fun. There is clearly major progress in out gay entertainers being beloved by a wider audience than ever before. Is it because lesbians are basically less threatening than gay men?(Forget the straight male porn fantasy -- I doubt Rosie and Ellen figure prominently in girl on girl action...) Would an out gay man hosting a talk show pull such numbers, or is it the nature of female daytime audience, i.e. they simply enjoy cozy female energy coming across. It is an interesting question, at a time when the country is so angrily polarized on gay politics.

Updated On: 5/26/04 at 10:18 AM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:25am

i would argue, auggie, that you're not factoring in something: ellen's hilarious. she's an exceptionally talented woman and i think that in her case, talent trumps sexuality.

as far as rosie, there's still women in the heartland that argue that she just needs to find the right man. and she was not real out suring her reign at the top of the charts what with her fawning over tom cruise and others who the heartland will never buy as gay short of graphic video footage.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:31am

I agree that humor trumps all, Papa.

But I was a fairly dedicated viewer, and never for a minute thought the Rosie Tom Cruise thing played straight woman/straight (!) man. Or was intended to. It was a lesbian version of Jack McFarland adoring Cher. Rosie always said her fantasy was Cruise mowing her lawn. He even acted it out on her final episode. I mean, please, it was aa Home Depot fantasy about a guy? She never pretended she dreamed of bedding him, or even kisssing him. (And I remember her telling Elton John: "...I'm not bi-coastal, no sir, I'm one-coastal, and always have been," to which the audience roared.) Personally, I think Cruise's studied assexuality is what made him so safe to a lesbian. If people thought Rosie just needed to meet the right man, I shudder to think who they thought that man should be.

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:32am

We may get at least a slight answer to your question, Auggie, as Graham Norton is starting an American version of his show this summer - albeit, on the Comedy Channel - not really mainstream. But it might give an indication.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:36am

john goodman, auggie, john goodman.

[ckeaton]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:39am

Would an out gay man hosting a talk show pull such numbers, or is it the nature of female daytime audience

A little show called 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' has become a cultural phenominon. Two points indicating that to me:

• My sloppy very-straight friends are giving each other QE makeovers at the mall on a regular basis.
  
• The messy guy on 'Super Millionaire' last night, from deep south, who said he'd never watched the show, but immediatley answered 'Fab Five' with a smile.
  

Potential Arguments to this:

• They (for the most part) espouse what is considered by many to be a negative stereotype. Perhaps this makes them seem less real, and more "cartoon-ish" to our friends in uh.. more rural.. areas.
  
• They're on cable.
  

But, I think gay culture has become pop culture. America's youth are no longer sensitized to "gays" as being something to be ashamed of or hidden away. Hell, I'd even argue that the gay lifestyle is glamourized in the pop media (see: Will and Grace, Three to Tango - well, did anyone see Three to Tango?).

My point is that with these types of shows and movies making gay "characters" and individuals more main-stream... It is only a matter of time when the children of today become the adults of tomorrow, that gay folks will be able to have all of the benefits and horrors of marriage. The culture is shifting. It will never turn on a dime, but I think we can all feel it moving.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:40am

Yes! You nailed it! They be good in HAIRSPRAY together -- wait, but who would play which part.

By the bi, Ellen has spent this season offering lesbian drool over Justin Timberlake, always called "my boy...". Just this very day, she was waxing on about him to his true squeeze Diaz. AFter the titty cup malfunction, she said "I'm mad at my boy!" Those funny dyke cut-ups do like their boy toys.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:40am

but, ck, ask any school-kid what's the worst name you can call someone and you'll hear how far we've actually come.

[ckeaton]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:41am

Oh, papa... "republican" isn't that bad of a word.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:42am

lol, that's the worst name grown ups can call one another, ck.

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 11:10am

I have 9 nieces and nephews and I've already seen a remarkable difference in awareness between them and myself (and it's not THAT big an age difference...I'm 30 in a week and my oldest niece is 17).

Yes...a lot of these images are minstrely. However, they have been instrumental in making them aware of gay and lesbian people. Add to that, two loving gay couples in one family (myself and my man and my uncle and his man) and they're getting a rather deep picture of what it means to be gay.

I have a rather conservative brother and sister-in-law who I didn't know how they'd react to me bringing David home for Xmas this year. But they were thrilled I have found someone to share my life with and my sister-in-law used their favorite TV show, THE GOLDEN GIRLS, the explain to her kids about gay relationships (the one with Blanche's brother). And I have to say it was the happiest Xmas I remember having.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 11:12am

Papa, you're right. The word gay is more of a pejorative put-down among pre-adolescents than ever(I have a 13 year old) and has become such a prolem that schools automatically suspend kids who use it.

As for QUEER eye, I considered that, of course, but finally deduced it's very different than a standard talk show -- First of all, it's prime time. More critically, it trades in applying the gay sensibility, in a very narrow sense, to a member of straight world. At the end of the show, they return to their gay apartment, sip cosmos, and stay very separate. Love it or hate it, it does keep the gay men fairly segregated. They "integrate" only long enough to spread their skills and aesthetic, and then retreat to Chelsea. I am not saying such a show is bad -- who am I to judge? -- but it's not like seeing gay men portrayed as arbiters of something other than taste in styles.

Updated On: 5/26/04 at 11:12 AM

[Jon]

Posted: 5/27/04 at 7:55am

Regarding the contestant on "Millionaire" who said he'd never seen the show, but knew the nickname "Fave Five":

I've never seen The Sopranos - I don't even have cable, but I knew the answer to the Millionaire question :"Which of the following Sopranos characters has not yet been whacked?" Popel on TV and radio talk shows discuss the show so much, everyone was saying "What's going to happen with Christopher and...", "Do you think Christopher will...", etc. - I have no idea who Christopher is, but I know he's not dead yet!

[ckeaton]

Posted: 5/27/04 at 9:31am

It's "Fab Five"... so listening to the radio would have gotten you the wrong answer.

It only goes to further illustrate the point that they are part of the pop/common culture of our "world". As are the Sopranos.