"No one could have anticipated this kind of disaster"- Page 2

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 3:48pm

Didn't the levees start to give way on Monday morning?



St. Bernard flooding update

Monday, 4 p.m.

Official postings on the St. Bernard government Web site about flooding in the parish:

At 11:00 a.m. , the National Weather Service reported that a levee broke
on the Industrial Canal - the waterway that connects the Mississippi River to the Intracoastal Waterway - near the St. Bernard-Orleans parish line at
Tennessee Street, and 3 to 10 feet of flooding was possible with Arabi
receiving some degree of rising water.

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 4:38pm

There's no questions, worst-case situations were considered and planned for, that's what makes this all so terrible. I too thought maybe there was just no way to prepare for something like this.

While I am certain there will be a list of things that could have been handled better by EVERYONE involved including Bush (and HS & FEMA), I have just few questions for the "Blame Bush" crowd:


1) Was Gov. Blanco quoted as saying (before the hurricane hit) "President George W. Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city"? Wouldn't that give the Gov. the opportunity to ask for additional support?

2) Did the Mayor of New Orleans follow the City's Emergency Management Plan (EMP) regarding hurricans? And in following the City's plan, why didn't the Mayor use any of the hundred's of school buses to help those with no transportation? Why did the National Hurricane Center Director need to call the Mayor on Saturday night before it hit, to plead "Get the people out of NEw Orleans"?

3) Why did Nagin wait until Sunday morning to mandate the evac but not aggressively enforce it? Was it because he asked City attorney to research whther or not he had the power to mandate the evacuation? Was Nagin even familiar with the city's hurricane evac plan?

4) Politically speaking - Who has more to lose politcally? Gov Blanco; Mayor Nagin; Or President Bush (hint- Bush will never run for politcal office again and he's is his 2nd term)

Here is the STATE EMP link: Reading through it, clearly, their is a plan for mass evacuations for hurricanes; there are required temp shelters in the northern parts of the state; it calls for the mobilization of school buses and so on. It states that CAT 3, 4 & 5 hurricanes must have manditory evac plan, and that to anticipate waters over 20 feet (sea level) thats 40 feet for New Orleans, also that the levees may not hold when stronger hurricanes hit.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/frp2003.pdf

Here is the link to the City EMP

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Here are some highlights. You judge whether or not they followed their own plan.

"City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan" annex I: Hurricanes


III. EVACUATION ORDER
A. Authority

As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness

The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.

B. Issuance of Evacuation Orders

The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans. Concerning preparation needs and the issuance of an evacuation order, The Office of Emergency Preparedness should keep the Mayor advised.

[snip]

V. TASKS

A. Mayor

* Initiate the evacuation.

* Retain overall control of all evacuation procedures via EOC operations.

* Authorize return to evacuated areas.

B. Office of Emergency Preparedness

* Activate EOC and notify all support agencies to this plan.

* Coordinate with State OEP on elements of evacuation.

* Assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas.

* Assist ESF-8, Health and Medical, in the evacuation of persons with special needs, nursing home, and hospital patients in accordance with established procedures.

* Coordinate the release of all public information through ESF-14, Public Information.

* Use EAS, television, cable and other public broadcast means as needed and in accordance with established procedure.

* Request additional law enforcement/traffic control (State Police, La. National Guard) from State OEP

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 4:51pm

There's no point in Republican Spinning Points any more, Greg. You're looking a bit like a dreidel there. It's o-ver.

Even David Brooks, of whom I am not a fan, was forced to admit:

"All we can be sure of is that the political culture is about to undergo some big change.

We're not really at a tipping point as much as a bursting point. People are mad as hell, unwilling to take it anymore."

The Bursting Point

Updated On: 9/4/05 at 04:51 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 4:52pm

Greg - I am not disagreeing with you . . . there is plenty of blame to go around. I am by no means putting all of the disaster and damage on Bush's doorstep.

But, once even an inkling of the magnitude of damage and destruction became clear, he should have reacted, and he didn't.

I am sure the citizens of NO and LA will have plenty to say about the response of their local leaders. The rest of us have a right to criticize the failure of the federal government. You can also look at funding priorities and building into the wetlands as possible causes exacerbating this damage.

Bush chose to put FEMA into the Homeland Seecurity Department, which means it was no longer a cabinet level position. He sat there strumming a guitar when NO was flooding. There is plenty of blame to go around, but only federal government has the resources to address immediate needs when the scope of the devastation became clear. Helicopters should have been there sooner. The army should have been directed to get there before Wednesday. This did not happen. And, more importantly, Bush did not seem to care, until someone told him he better care. Even his speech on Friday seemed to ring hollow.

As I have said before, he called the Southeast/Gulf Coat on Friday as "this part of the world." To me, that spoke volumes.

"But after touring the Gulf Coast to see the damage, the president, speaking in New Orleans, said: "I know the people in this part of the world are suffering, and I want them to know that there's a flow of progress. We're making progress."

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 4:57pm

Youwant, I think you're being far too kind and gentle in your choice of wording:

"You can also look at funding priorities and building into the wetlands as possible causes exacerbating this damage."

Oh no, it's time to word this with the same unvarnished, uncareful speech that the Republicans have been browbeating this country with since 9/11.

Bush's funding priorities (redirecting levee reinforcement $$$ to the illegal war on Iraq), and ill-advised disregard for science and the dismissal of global warming, environmentalism and fricking newspapers, all allowed this bad event to be exasperated.

To paraphrase Celine Dion, I don't want to hear the excuses anymore. Which is where Greg came in.

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:12pm

Namo - there will be plenty of back-biting, no question about it. In fact, I willing to bet that more of it will come from within the GOP than from outside of (eventually) and I think you know why - Who's Bush's successor??? Right, its wide open, which doesn't happen too often (in either party) so they will start to rip each other apart, separate from Bush to stake their own claim as the new and emerging leadership of the GOP... the DNC will do their best to take advantage. What's this mean to the rest of us? Ahh...we'll just be more partisan and angry and vitriolic than ever before. Which is what the politicians need for is to be doing...they need for us lemmings to take sides.

Namo, you can take all the shots at me you like, I am just to trying to remember which side started all the finger-pointing and blaming. My entire point here was to simply point out the Emergency Management Plan that NO & LA have and to ask if you think or if you even know whether or not the plan was followed. You still didn't answer my questions- you charged back with your "its over -blame Bush" talking points.

Youwantitwhen - I agree with you about FEMA - it should have never been placed under HS - FEMA deals with mostly "Natural Disasters" and the mop up. HS should be able to rely on FEMA for certain responses in the event of "Man-made" disaster.

Regarding the levees- Even the state knew back in 2002 that their levee system could and would fail. Sure, it could have been improved and funding shouldn't be cut...etc, but knowing and understanding the current circumstances is how you carry out your EMP - Like in everything else, we should all withhold judgment until all the facts are it.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:15pm

Namo - usually, unless I have the direct link or the actual facts in front of me on the information I quote, I try to temper my language a bit. Blame it on the lawyer in me.

My understanding was that it was not a 100% guarantee that the flooding would have been prevented had the funding been approved, and the wetlands maintained, but a likelihood. Your post does reflect my personal belief that much of this could have been prevented and should have been prevented by thoughtful and resonable environmental policies and funding of the levee projects. Much of the damage and deaths lies at the feet of those who deny global warming, build where they should not, and are too busy funding a illegal war to take care of our own infrastructure.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:17pm

Greg--I'm sincerely wondering if your intention is to make sure we realize the blame is all around or to defend Bush.

I think most of us realize the blame is all around--non-partisan. But the buck stops with the President. Fine if you are trying to remind us of the full blame here, but to defend Bush would be foolish at this point.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:20pm

You must be thinking of some other president if you think that's where the buck stops, jrb.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:43pm

You mean the President who sat reading a childs book (upside down) to grade school students for a full 10 minutes AFTER he was told the United States was under attack on 9/11?

Nope, it's the same idiot.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:47pm

At least this time as Rome was burning, Ner(d)o was strumming a guitar in California rather than fiddling.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 5:53pm

Yes, I hope he got a sunburn

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:05pm

You make a fair point JRB - There are something’s that the President did that absolutely infuriate me. For one - from a perception standpoint, he looked like "Nero fiddled, while Rome burned".

I think we all intellectually will admit, regardless if its a Democrat or a Republican in the White House, in the time of a natural disaster, the President has an army of advisors that advise him any given situation; the President really doesn't make any decisions as what help gets deployed, how it gets deployed, the timeliness of it and so on. These decisions are made by career bureaucrats. The President basically just says "yes, we'll pay for it" and a "rally the troops" approach.

But the President does have one important job to do; to look Presidential. It’s what the American people expect of a President...any President. I agree, Bush didn't look Presidential. In fact, he looks like a jackass in the guitar photo-op, while this is going on in NO (and other parts). He didn't give a re-assuring feeling. But does that doesn't mean the work wasn’t being done? Read this AP story. They report about the Feds were doing the next day after the storm. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05242/562353.stm

It gives some insight to what the FEDS were doing; shipments of food and water and so on. I think you will find that what was needed to be done, was being done; New Orleans posed other problems, like three major access bridges being washed away and so on.

Another question that must be asked: The AP reported earlier that the White House sent a legal document for Gov. Blanco to sign, which basically allowed the Fed to take over the entire Evac operation and so on. It is required from a Constitutional standpoint. She refused. Why? Some of the local leadership was "allegedly" encouraging her NOT to sign because of political reasons..."LA can't handle their own problems, under a female democrat gov." was the intimation being made. Now, if that turns out to be true, I wonder if anyone will even remark about it?

Finally, I think most people have no idea what the Federal Government is allowed to do and not do, as it relates to the administration of state and local responsibilities. My sister, a screaming liberal said "well Bush should have just sent FEMA in there regardless what the State and locals were doing, because he has an obligation to protect the rights of those people". To one extent, she's right, if the administration can prove that the state and local authorities were intentionally failing to act, or ignoring their responsibility to the citizens of NO, then the Feds can take over on the basis of Federal rights protection.
But under all other circumstances, the Feds have to be basically "invited" in to help.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:09pm

Tell your sister that W had FEMA spayed and neutered to fund the Iraq Follies. She's thinking Old School FEMA, no longer extant.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:10pm

Well, all those to blame are responsible those people who did not have to suffer or die---if the news could get there, why couldn't the government.

People keep making excuses and keep trying to cover their asses, and it's just not going to cut it.

I pray to God this country gets it's **** together before a massive terror attack happens.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:16pm

Because it's very clear now that the hollow "rugged individualist" narrative of this country applies to any of us who are victimized by any future major terrorist attack; as in, "good luck, you're on your own?!"?

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:25pm

People keep making excuses and keep trying to cover their asses, and it's just not going to cut it.

I agree with you 100%...and I hope that EVERYONE that didn't do their job is held accountable, Bush included.

Consider this:

If President Bush is as incompetent and is the big incompetent bungling fool that some people here are making him out to be, certainly the people in-charge in New Orleans and the State of Louisiana must have been smart enough to know about his incompetence long before this hurricane; I can't believe that they would take any chances on allowing Bush to screw this up, knowing the thousands of lives that were in harms way. Do you?

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:31pm

No kidding Namo, it must be a "you're on your own mentality".

At present, the Gov still will not give up control to the FEDS and now AP just reported the following. Local police are now killing people that are there to help. WTF- who is in charge??

Today: September 04, 2005 at 15:27:4 PDT

Police Kill Five Contractors on La. Bridge

ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW ORLEANS (AP) -

0904dv-hurricaneupdate Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.

The contractors were walking across a bridge on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to fix the 17th Street Canal, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Corps.

Earlier Sunday, New Orleans Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.

The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, which spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

No other details were immediately available.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:32pm

EDIT - did not catch the sarcasm in Greg's Post. Too many Bush apologists today have affected my ability of observation . . .

So, I modified the beginning of my response. . .

Bush is the frickin commander-in-chief. He is the one who can authorize federal resources. He is the one that sets the tone for the FEderal Government. He has portrayed himself as battle-ready and a leader.

Many of us do not like him as a leader. But even his harshest critics could not imagine that he would be so inept during this crisis (well, maybe a few could imagine).




Updated On: 9/4/05 at 06:32 PM

[dededarlin]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:32pm

i wish that just for once this entire country could stop the blaming and pointing fingers and simply focus on what needs to be done NOW to make things better. PLEASE do not turn this disaster into a political debate. it was an act of nature. maybe the government didn't act fast enough...i agree that they didn't..but none of us know why that happened or who kept it from happening. maybe bush was to blame, maybe blanco, maybe naquin. but, honestly DOES IT REALLY MATTER who is to blame? is it going to make any difference? that's not what this country needs now. we need to unite and help those in need. that is what matters now. deal with the political crap later.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:37pm

Yes, yes and yes. These are the same mistakes of hubris and complete empathetic detachment that we have finally seen one too many times.

Parallel processes CAN take place, Dede. People CAN do what they can to help, I know I and my friends all have and will continue to do so, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME we are able to say, LOOK who failed us again.

The President. Defunded FEMA. Ignores science. Reduces the Army Corps of Engineers. Deploys the NATIONAL GUARD to Iraq, which is NOT their job.

Yeah. I feel pretty confident in my ability to help and to say this government has bungled one thing too many. As somebody I don't even like, David Brooks wrote in the Times today: "Katrina is the anti-9/11."

As in, it's over for Bush.

[Greg-4now]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:40pm

Youwantitwhen- my comment at the end, was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. As I said earlier, everyone is basing their opinions based on very little fact. Again, you mentioned that Bush has all these Federal resources, but when you're not mentioning is that there are some things HE CAN'T DO BY FEDERAL LAW. Again, let all the facts come out first, before placing blame on anyone.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:46pm

Please. The person responsible for across the board reduction in resources can't complain that there aren't enough resources.

"...let all the facts come out first, before placing blame on anyone..." is just a delaying statement, as if there is some recognizeable moment in which all the facts are revealed. Well, that just ain't the way the real world works. Facts don't all "come out" at once. And the facts that ARE out, is damning enough. And the powers in Washington must be crapping their suits hoping no more come out.

[dededarlin]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:46pm

yes, i know it is quite possible to do both at the same time...i guess it just bothers me that so much attention is focused on who is to blame. i'm an idealist who wants our country to unite right now. yeah, i know that's not gonna happen. nevermind.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/4/05 at 6:49pm

1. The focus is on absolutely justifiable outrage.

2. This president who is supposedly a uniter has done nothing but divide us. You even hear it in his language, referring to the gulf as "that part of the world."