"No one could have anticipated this kind of disaster" — Page 3

If we don't find out the fundamental cause of the failures, how can we prevent them from happening again?

Given this government's ability to re-write history and recast situations, I think you have no choice but to say loudly and clearly how they screwed up. If you wait, then the spin of responsibility will result in somehow, this being at someone else's doorstep.

Perhaps they can find a reporter to throw in jail for this one as well.

i understand your point. being from new orleans myself, i guess i was just wishing that it was nobody's fault and that we would all just get through it together, without having to blame others. once again, i was just being an idealist. i do appreciate that everyone cares so much though.

ah exactly!

I've met Michael Chertoff at a political function (a democrat function actually) several years ago. He's a brilliant prosecutor/attorney. He's about as egotistical as they come. I don't like the man at all and frankly was very disappointed when they named him. As much as some people didn't like Ridge, he was a much better administrator. Most lawyers I know, are lousy businessmen; they wouldn't have a clue on even how to bill me if it weren't for their office managers. Chertoff is no different.

EDIT - lousy businessmen=Chertoff=not knowing how to effectively manage the busines of DHS.

Updated On: 9/4/05 at 07:15 PM

Namo - this is your typical response...you answered none of my questions and just made another laundry list complaints that you want to dump on Bush's doorstep. You have refused to even acknowledge that some of the problems in New Orleans is because of local and state failures, or that failure on the local and state level is even possible.

And you've once again taken my words out of context. I said we shouldn't be finger pointing until all the information is out; those that have responsibilities in the matter shouldn't be pointing fingers either. And I said that we weren't being directly impacted by the hurricane: by that I mean, you still have a roof over your head, you still have running water, your street isn't flooded, you are free to go out and have a beer at a local pub...etc. That's why I said "directly". Some point down the road we will be impacted to some minor degree; when you compare it to what the people from New Orleans are going through. Like, right now, we are seeing higher prices at the pump; that makes people angry, but pales by comparison, don't ya think.

At least answer this.
Aren't you even little curious why the Director of National Hurricane Center called the Mayor of New Orleans and pleaded with him to evacuate the city? Aren't you curious to know why the Mayor didn't take the advice and mandate the evacution? Aren't you curious why the Governor wouldn't sign off on the FEds taking over the entire evac operation? Aren't curious to know why the State and Local officials didn't execute all of the elements of their Emergency Management Plan? Or are you just going to sit back and settle for just blame the current administration?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that the President is nothing more than a greedy incompetitent bastard, and that will no longer "cut it"...what are you going to do about it? The guy is in his last term. He will never run for office again.

I did send my two Senators (both Democrats) and my Congressmam (a republican) an email to warn them about making this a partisan dog fight.

On a positive note; I helped out at car wash today with a bunch of high school students; these kids raised over $1,200.00 to donate to the Red Cross. I haven't had this much fun in a long time. It was a blast. This one kid (I think his name was Franky) said that he worked all summer to save up for a new bass guitar; he said that he just saved enough for the one he wants, but now is going to donate half of that money to the Red Cross Relief effort. I think thats great that kids understand how important it is to help out.

Well, Bush does want a good legacy--and he can't accomplish anything in this second term to do that if he doesn't have capital and/or Congress becomes Democratic controlled next year.

---

Just one point of clarification - at least at this moment.

The Mayor did issue the Mandatory Evacuation Order:

" New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor's announcement)"

See: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/

What he did not do was forcible place people on transportation out of town.

Greg, you are accurate when you say much policy is local, but I think that much of the disparity of wealth and its distribution is purely Republican. The allocation or resources in this country has been skewed and distorted based upon Republican pet project - which is no different from Democrats, except that many of these pet project serve few, if any citizens.

I cannot imagine the bridge fiasco in Alaska will not be played time and time again to show what this Republican Party stands for. The gutting of the infrastructue due to tax cuts benefitting the wealthy because of something made up called "supply-side economics."

The redistrubution of wealth and resources from those who need it most to those who already have. Leave the infrastrucure to the private sector. This has been the Republican domestic agenda for the past five years (actually longer, but they really got it going with Bush). Many Republicns may be in safe districts, but others are not. And, small government, which the Republicans advocate, clearly does not work in times of crisis. This is the government that Bush, Rove and company brought us, and many senators and congressmen were only too happy to drink the cool-aid and ride the coat-tails. Environmental policies that ingore science in favor of a quick buck and a new development.

So, I think there will be consequences. And I think Bush's second term agenda is thankfully compromised.

Greg:

1. I was specifically referring to the 200+ million dollar bridge in Alaska that serves approximately 50 people (at least according to multiple sources site) and is a project of the head of the approrpriations committee. The current highway bill is itself an example of pork of epic porportions. As for the specific quote - this is the Bridge to Nowhere that cost over $200 million dollars: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/09/bridges/index_np.html

2. Supply-side economics - I don't think it works for the whole. It benefits some, sure. Me included. But, it seems that the progressive tax system is being thrown away, with those with the highest ability to pay finding ways to pay the least. Between federal/state and social security, I probably paid as much, if not more than you in taxes.

When I talk about reallocation of resources, I am also referring to abandoning the country's infrastrucutre. Money is not being reinvested in ways that benefits the whole, but seems to favor those already benefitting from society. Granted, this we are a capitalistic society, but, if you look in terms of who is making what these days, the top level of corporate america's wages and earnings have risen to an amount that would equal a minimum wage of approximately $20.00. Credit Card companies and banks get to rewrite our bankruptcy code, while the states cannot regulate much of what banks do because of federal regulation.

And, given their druthes, the Republicans will permanent abolish the estate tax, so who knows, your kids, who had the benefit of a hard working and successful family, will be rewarding with all of your estate.

Here is more on how the wealth is being distributed and resources allocated and how pork is being built into so much government spending:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/8/10/125548.shtml

Highway bill: MONTGOMERY, Ill. -- President Bush on Wednesday signed a whopping $286.4 billion transportation bill, touting it as bringing the nation's transportation network "into the 21st century."

With fanfare, Bush signed the more than 1,000-page highway bill into law even though it was more costly than he preferred. It includes cash to bankroll some 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers in their home districts.

. . .
Keith Ashdown, vice president of policy for Taxpayers for Common Sense, however, called the measure a "bloated, expensive bill" that the Bush should have vetoed.

"It is only fitting that the president is signing this legislation in Speaker Hastert's district, because the speaker's district has the third highest amount of highway pork in the nation," Ashdown said.

The bill contains more than 6,371 special projects valued at more than $24 billion, or about 9 percent of the bill's total cost, he said. The distribution of the money for these projects "is based far more on political clout than on transportation need," Ashdown said.


3. I agree that there will be hell to pay at many levels of government. But, this President has run on his ability to lead. In this instance, he, along with many in LA, failed. I believe there will be consequences. You may disagree, that is fine.

4. People who voted for Bush, many of them, voted because they were afraid of two men kissing, and were told that Bush would be there to lead. Many saw him standing on top of the ruins in 9/11 as the image of a strong leader, and voted accordingly. Many did not look into the policies underlying the Administration - though of course some did. Bush won the popular vote. I don't disagree. But it is his government. His policies. He is the one that sets the tone. Again, this is my opinion. You have a different one. Some of these issues are based upon perception. Yours is different than mine.

5. I was specifically address the permission to build on wetlands when many environmental groups warned of the possible consequences of removing natural protection and defenses against such things as Hurricanes. Bush 1 and Clinton had very stringent policies against building on Wetlands. Bush 2 removed many of these restrictions and said build away.

This Administrations environmental and energy policies ignore gloabal warming, and the enviromental consequences associated with some of our industry practices. It effectively reveresed many of its 2000 campaign promises once it came into office. I am to tired now to get all of the sites. But, in the words of Christie Todd Whitman: http://www.mypartytoo.com/:

"First, we have to decide on the issues that are of the most importance . . . environmental policies that promote a balanced approach to environmental protection."


As for Anwar - I am actually torn - if I trusted that business would not detroy the area, I might be more comfortable. But history does not support this hope. Had previous administrations, both Republican and Democrat, focused on alternate energy rather than being on an Oil IV . . .

6. As for the kool-aid reference, I was actually thinking about the meshing of church and state, and the willingness to use one's religious belief to dictate public policy. Stem-cell research being impeded based upon the President's religious belief. Religion should not be injected into our political process to the extent it has.

And, the Bush/Rove group has talking points and strategy bullets that are repeated almost like a Mantra by his followers. They have their talking points, and away people go. The Democrats are just not as good at doing this.

7. Mid-term elections are a year away. Maybe the American public has a short memory, but even our political ADD will not forget the images of those dying asking for help. And, while the Republicans still want to change social security and end permanently the estate tax, I think people will look more cloesly at the consequences of these practices, and think twice at the underlying objectives.

Again, no one knows. But I think that the consequences of this event will impact the ability of Bush/Rove et al to argue that small government is best.

With regard to the other issues raised, I don't make stuff up out of my ass, but cannot at this moment get my hands on all of the sites.

You and I can agree to disagree on politcs. You have the right to your opinion. As I do to mine.


OK - now I am going to open a bottle or wine. I feel like I just finished a homework assignment.

Updated On: 9/5/05 at 08:37 PM

Youwantitwhen????

Your response is tremendous. Its filled with facts, references and clearly you put a great deal of thought into your response. More importantly, I appreciate your honest debate and the absence of a "personal" attack. I know you're not making any of it up. Now it just boils down to our opinions on the issues, and you are right, we are both entitled to our opinions.

I can only guess that you are fed up with "pork" projects - to a degree, I am too. But regardless who's been in power, the pork projects will happen. Just look at the "Big Dig" in Boston. I am not condoning it. (This is the problem with the two party system - this is what really needs to change!!)

The big transportation bill is over a long period of time. The Transportation Department's annual budget is a fraction of that. And frankly, looking at some of the roads that I have driven on in the North east...we need a massive "pork" projects to fix the roads...hell, just mid-town Manhattan is nightmare!

I agree 100% regarding the wetlands...its our ocean water's natural filter...they must be protected.

Bankruptcy law is very complicated. The Banks (who extend the credit cards) were getting ripped off by individual bankruptcy. When someone realizes how deep of hole they are in; they take out several cards; run them up and then declare bankruptcy. Something needed to be done to close that. The fact that banks are federally regulated is important. It all revolves around controlling the flow of currency and the National interest rate; but also protecting bank customers money. Back in 1860's (When Lincoln was President) he started a small department called Secret Service - it had one function - track down bogus currency and there was tons of it. At the time, there was over 30,000 banks (and Drug stores and other places of commerce) printing their own currency - legally - it was a nightmare. (Ironically, it wasn't until later that the Secret Service was used to protect the President.

As for the public...they do have a short memory. Do you remember how people acted after 9/11? Everyone was so much kinder to each other - and it was real, not phony. Much of that is gone - we remember to be bitter about some things, but we can't remember just to say thank you to clerk for bagging our groceries - or to just have patience with a small child. I know, its not everyone. But after 9/11 everyone seemed so different. Most have forgotten - not the event - but how we treated each other afterwards.

NAMO - I'm not sure what you want from me either, but fair and honest discourse would be a good start. Comments not filled with sarcasm and snide remarks. I don't regurgitate anyone's talking points but my own. If they happen to have a familiar ring, it’s not because I am trying to repeat Karl Rove. The blame game wasn't started by Bush and the administration. If they feel like they need to get involved with that game, then that's a mistake on their part. I understand a few republican congressmen are suggesting that House Hearings should be held on what happened in Louisiana. Apparently, some of the leaders in Louisiana aren't too receptive to this idea. I wonder why.

Namo- In all of your other posts, you sound like you’re a good decent person. I like healthy, honest and intellectual debate and hopefully that's what you and I will do from time to time.
Have a good night.