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Oliver Stone's JFK & Nixon

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#1

Oliver Stone's JFK & Nixon

Posted: 12/10/05 at 5:34pm

Back when Stone was a brave film maker and not the coward he has become, he made this epic film that I FINALLY just saw yesterday.

I was stunned how relevant the film resonates today. CAN we trust our government? WHAT are these men (and women) in charge capable of? HOW are wars really started? WHY is it that when people ask questions and seek truth, they are regarded as traitors? HOW is it that so many Americans accept what is spoon fed to them without question, even when the "facts" do not add up?

Fascinating how history just keeps repeating itself...


johnraymondbarker.com

Updated On: 12/11/05 at 05:34 PM

#2

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:02pm

Well a lot of the movie is unfortunately fiction which discredits it hugely. I remember there being an article called 'Dances With Facts' about the movie when it was released. That said, it's an absolutely brilliantly constructed piece of work and completely absorbing.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#3

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:05pm

Granted, I don't know what of the film is FACT about the logistics of shooting itself, but from I do know, there is no way Oswald did it by himself. I may have to check out Dance With Facts to sift all that out.

But, regardless, it's the ideas in the film that matter.
johnraymondbarker.com
#4

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:12pm

I haven't seen the film or read up on it in years but I do remember that the character Tommy Lee Jones plays is entirely fictional.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#5

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:19pm

Well, I can understand the need to fill in the holes with dramatic licensing in order to tell a complete story/scenario. It might also have been a way to avoid law suits by attacking a nonfictional person. And, the character may be based on fact or suspicions.
johnraymondbarker.com
#6

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:23pm

"but from I do know, there is no way Oswald did it by himself"

are you saying you helped? because that's the *only* way you can actually know without being dependent upon what others tell you
#7

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:23pm

There was a whole lot more to it than just that. Do some digging around, I'm sure there's info on it somewhere on the net. But there was enough stuff in there that was either fact or very close to it to make you sit up and take notice.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#8

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:32pm

Yawper, I believe the information that would indicate the scientific impossibility that Oswald did it alone. I don't need you to correct me or to educate me on these matters.

I'm a big boy and can think for myself.
johnraymondbarker.com
#9

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 6:34pm

and steal other people's boyfriends, but that's not the point.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#10

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 7:37pm

how do you know the 'science' being presented to you is valid?

do you even know the tenets of good science?
#11

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 7:51pm

How do you know it's not? Or that what you are being told is valid? How do any of us know?

I believe it when people say that it would be impossible for Oswald to shoot that gun three times in 6 seconds plus aim, for one thing.

I believe in the possibility that what we've been told is not true.
johnraymondbarker.com
#12

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 8:39pm

"I believe it when people say that it would be impossible for Oswald to shoot that gun three times in 6 seconds plus aim, for one thing."

One of the cable channels (History or Discovery) attempted to recreate the environment and a marksman did get off the shots, with the kill shot being the easiest to make -

"HOW is it that so many Americans accept what is spoon fed to them without question, even when the "facts" do not add up?"

this is why it's so important to critically question *both* sides of any story, without making assumptions or leaping to conclusions then basing further decisions on those assumptions or conclusions

"I believe in the possibility that what we've been told is not true. How do any of us know?"

We don't, hence my initial remark -

(there are no absolutes in science, only predictablilty based upon repeatability - one must always keep an open mind)




Updated On: 12/10/05 at 08:39 PM

#13

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 8:47pm

Ok. You may a fair point with that post. And, from that I get to sit deeper in doubt.

But I still like the message of the film--and the points I raise in the first post of this thread.
johnraymondbarker.com
#14

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/10/05 at 11:36pm

One of the cable channels (History or Discovery) attempted to recreate the environment and a marksman did get off the shots, with the kill shot being the easiest to make -

Really? That's odd. In an undergraduate seminar that used the Kennedy assassination as a case study, I read of a similar experiment conducted by an independent forensics organization; they found that the odds of such a shot were astronomical, even for a world-class shooter. Interesting how different sources yield different results.

The seminar pretty much concluded that there is as much evidence of Oswald doing it alone as there is of a conspiracy. People have been arguing both sides for decades, and unless some vital new piece of information is disclosed, the assassination will remain one of history's great mysteries.
BlueWizard's blog: The Rambling Corner HEDWIG: "The road is my home. In reflecting upon the people whom I have come upon in my travels, I cannot help but think of the people who have come upon me."

Updated On: 12/10/05 at 11:36 PM

#15

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/11/05 at 4:01am

yes, I saw the Discovery channel thing too, and it was pretty amazing. They recreated it, down to the make up and size of the bodies involved, and remarkably, the experiment pretty much proved that the 'magic bullet' did all that by itself, going through two areas before being lodged in the knee (im not sure if that's right...whatever actually happen is what happened here). Obviously, just one experiment, but interesting nonetheless.
#16

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/11/05 at 4:43am

"Unsolved History" was the show

and although it shows Oswald could have been the shooter it can't rule out other participants

(some feel audio tapes from the day indicate a fourth shot being fired but no fourth bullet was ever found)
Unsolved History - JFK Conspiracy
#18

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/11/05 at 10:45am

Discovery and ABC News both did their own "scientific" recreations of the single bullet theory, and both came to the same conclusion. One bullet, one shooter. In fact, one of them, (ABC, I think), showed the discrepancies with the film JFK. The main point that is made about the head going back and to the right (or left, whatever), was exactly opposite of what actually happened. I think it was last year or the year before. Fairly recent, though. My main issue with the film JFK or conspiracy theories, in general, is the fact that no one has come forward who really knows the facts. I don't accept that so many people can keep their mouths shut, all this time. And, because no one has come forward, it's all theory.
And enjoy the beauty - all the joy and beauty - that a Merry Christmas can bring to you!
#19

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/11/05 at 11:07am

The only problem with the film JFK was Donald Sutherland was not nominated for his absolutely riveting portrait of an anonymous government informant.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#20

re: Oliver Stone's JFK

Posted: 12/11/05 at 1:45pm

"or was officially recorded..."

now here's another question to consider if you want to go the conspiracy route:

is the conspiracy pre-event (i.e. in the planning and committing of the assassination) in which case any number of groups, Gov't, Mob, Cuba, etc. could be involved but the crime scene evidence, autopsy, film & photos, etc. are legit?

or

is the conspiracy pre- and post-event (i.e. the doctoring of evidence to conform to a story) in which case it's pretty much restricted to the official agencies conducting the investigations?

or

is the conspiracy only post-event so that the government could use Oswald and not have the country freak out about something else they found (a major plot by another group) or couldn't find (an unsolved assassination within our own borders)?

A plain old single shooter doesn't make for a very interesting storyline unless Sondheim writes it. And God knows how much this country likes stories.



Updated On: 12/11/05 at 01:45 PM

#21

re: Oliver Stone's JFK & Nixon

Posted: 12/11/05 at 11:45pm

Well, we'll just have to wait until the 75 years is up so we can find out what happened--if what really happened is indeed recorded.

What we've been told certainly may be what really happened. But, I don't sit in certainty of that. I sit in doubt.

I am changing the thread title to include Nixon, which I finally saw today. That film is rather resonant today--and depending on how events progress, it may grow to be more and more resonant.
johnraymondbarker.com

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