Only at the Mecca of Education...- Page 2

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 10/21/07 at 10:42pm

Dear God, what is this world coming to? Dollypop not only "teaching" but sitting in judgment on a freaking Grand Jury! The lunatics have truly taken over.

[Malice]

Posted: 10/21/07 at 11:00pm

Just curious Papa, are you a teacher?

[geaj]

Posted: 10/21/07 at 11:10pm

Unfortunately you are all hitting on the real problem of education today - standardized testing. You can't really get into indepth thinking and creativity when you have to cover many specified objectives that someone decided needed to be covered because they match an item on the test. Signs on schools around my town say, "75 days until the WESTEST!" Imagine being a kid and seeing that as you drive to school each morning.

[bwayballerina]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:12am

Now, I'm only a high school student (and I've been lucky to have pretty great teachers most of my educational career thus far), but I've been a peer tutor at my school for the past two years and have been part of some interesting discussions about teaching and learning.

The ideology behind my school's tutoring center (which is actually called an "academic literacy center") is to teach students how to learn, study effectively and think critically. For instance, when tutoring a student in Algebra the other day, working on a word problem, we didn't think "how do I find the height of the tree?" but "what do I know that I could possibly use to help me find the height of the tree?" The process of solving a problem isn't always the same for each question in the textbook- but the thoughts to arrive at the process are. Sometimes it is very tempting to just say, for instance "divide by two and that's how you solve for X," but that doesn't really help the student in the long run.

It's basically a question of whether students are being given fish or being taught to fish, to paraphrase that old saying. If you teach them to fish, they'll be much better off in the long run. It's harder, more worthwhile, but not done nearly as often as it should be. And that's my two (high schooler) cents on education.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:33am

You are already a better teacher than most, Ballerina.
Of course, I always just BUY my fish, but I get your point.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:47am

I took my sleeping pills about an hour ago so I'm a bit drowsy so this may not make much sense.

As for the fish saying...same goes.
"Tell me and I will forget, show me and I will remember, involve me and I will learn"(and understand)

Children are getting their information on the surface, it needs to be deeper than that to understand and comprehend the concept.

A+4=10 What is A?

Already, you've started too far. Yea, you can probably figure it out on the basis of general thought (and you are older than grade school) but this is an easy example.


Students need to understand that algebra is it's own language and has it's own symbols. Use real life to help children learn. Change up the classroom and INVOLVE. Have students go shopping within the classroom, have them estimate how much it will cost. How much did it cost? What is the difference in price?

INVOLVEMENT is so very important. Students (especially younger ones) usually have no interest in sitting at their desks and taking notes.


And most importantly- AS THE TEACHER, BE INTERESTED!!! Other things may be going on in your life but leave that at the door (it may be difficult to but it will be best for you and your students).
Ask students questions. Do you prefer learning by listening to lectures, copying notes from the board, hands on projects....?

Updated On: 10/22/07 at 12:47 AM

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 8:09am

I do find it interesting how all the teachers on the board here seem to be on the same page, and those who don't know anything other than what has been fed through party lines and the media are on the other. If I do say so myself, my lessons REEK of creativity and places where the kids need to THINK. Remember, it's October - I've had these kids for six weeks (my eighth graders did a lot better than my seventh graders). The SYSTEM is teaching the kids how to take a test. Plain and simple. Standardized tests are currently and will continue to be the bane of education. I don't know of a SINGLE teacher or administrator in my school who actually thinks these tests are a good thing and a useful tool in our jobs. Regardless of our opinions, the pressure to perform on these tests has so seeped into our daily culture in school, that many teachers kowtow to those forces and never reach for anything beyond what's expected for the test. Throw in the nonsense focus on "whole language" these kids had to experience in elementary school (where spelling and grammar don't really matter), and it's no wonder the kids can't tell a noun from a verb!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 8:22am

Dollypop--why do you continue to teach? You could do other things. Why do you wake up every morning and go to school if you hate it so? Aren't you afraid you'll get bitter?

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 8:45am

And people would probably complain so much if Dollypop EVER said one positive, uplifting and encouraging word about his students. He does nothing but make fun of or put them down in some way, and always with a slightly racist slant. That person should not be teaching.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 9:42am

"I do find it interesting how all the teachers on the board here seem to be on the same page, and those who don't know anything other than what has been fed through party lines and the media are on the other."

That's a bit presumptive on your part. I happen to come from a family of educators. I have two older brothers, (one who is retired) that have taught their entire professional lives, and a sister-in-law and two nieces that also teach. I have taught as well, but on the university level, so I'm not exactly influenced by the media or the party line.

I have no doubts that NCLB and teaching to the test have resulted in a dumbing down of the students and frustration for the teachers. But to simply place the blame on the SYSTEM, excuses the teachers that as you say: "...kowtow to those forces and never reach for anything beyond what's expected for the test."

The person that started this thread has in previous threads stated:

"I am about to start my 36th year and I HATE my job. (Actually I'd enjoy teaching if I didn't have to deal with the kids.)"

"Do not get emotionally involved with your students. They'll wind up stabbing you in the back or stealing your wallet anyhow!"

And when directly asked why he hates teaching, his response was:

"I hate kids."

In my opinion that person shouldn't be allowed in any classroom, no matter how knowledgeable he may be on the subject that he teaches. His contempt for his students and his job is far worse than any of the problems that the "SYSTEM" brings to the classroom.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 11:12am

JustaGuy - there we agree - anyone who "hates" their kids and the job so much has no business being in the classroom.

Why do you object so much to the criticism of the system though? I don't think it's an EXCUSE at all - it's a REASON why things are the way they are. Yes, in our own classrooms we have the ability to make small changes, but the overall effects of NCLB and all that comes with it is enormous. Frankly, unless you are in a classroom affected by it, you might not see just how big an impact it has had on the kids and education as a whole. The system, as it is now, causes teachers to be apathetic because it is an uphill battle for us. Personally, I refuse to teach to the test - I still do creative things in my room, and if I get in trouble for it down the line, well, then maybe it'll be time for me to move on. Blaming the system doesn't excuse anyone. I'm lucky that I'm in a school where the PEOPLE involved (not the governmental influence by people who know nothing about education) respect teachers and what we do. I don't know that that is true even within other schools in the district. Unfortunately, the SYSTEM has caused many teachers to give up on creativity and lessons that actually teach the kids to think in favor of lessons on how to take a test. My district is not nearly as bad as others I've heard horror stories about. While it's easy to blame the teachers, many teacher don't have a choice in curriculum, don't have the support or materials to teach beyond what's expected for the test, and in some cases, don't even have the training to go beyond the test.

NCLB IS destroying American education as a whole, and I have seen absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

No offence, but teaching on a college level is nothing like teaching in a public school K-12. The outside pressures simply don't exist at that level.

"I have taught as well, but on the university level, so I'm not exactly influenced by the media or the party line. "

This does not put you above the influence...

[DBillyP]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 11:27am

My concern with this thread is teachers discussing students with identifiable names in an open forum.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 11:57am

This thread was started because I felt there was a bizarre situation in my class. It had nothing to do with whether I hated teaching or loved it.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:02pm

But do you hate it?

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:13pm

"Why do you object so much to the criticism of the system though? I don't think it's an EXCUSE at all - it's a REASON why things are the way they are."

I don't object to the criticism of the SYSTEM at all. I think everyone should object to it. What I do take objection to is using the SYSTEM as an excuse for failure, when there are teachers out there who are not apathetic and are actually educating their students despite the SYSTEM.

I think that NCLB should be dismantled sooner rather than later, and that teaching to the test is counterproductive. Good test results in no way actually measure a students abilities and gives a false sense of what is being accomplished.

"No offence, but teaching on a college level is nothing like teaching in a public school K-12. The outside pressures simply don't exist at that level."

"This does not put you above the influence..."

Of course it doesn't, and I never said it did. I only noted it, because you earlier presumed that anyone who didn't totally agree with you was being influenced by the media and the party line. Which, in my case is not true. I'm influenced by my own experiences and those of my family. When you sit at a dinner table with five educators you get an ear-full on the short-comings of NCLB and the SYSTEM in general.

Jason, I think we agree more than we disagree. But, I find it hard not to take exception to teachers who are apathetic or have given up because they're frustrated with the SYSTEM. If they've given up, then they should move on and make room for teachers like you and Kel who are finding ways to teach creatively despite the SYSTEM.

Updated On: 10/22/07 at 12:13 PM

[kelzama]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 12:23pm

You can blame NCLB all you want, but it boils down to lack of parental involvement, teachers who get raises & tenure regardless of the quality of their work, and students who aren't disciplined at home and can't be disciplined at school.

This isn't a new problem. Just one that keeps getting worse.

[PB ENT.]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 3:06pm

The reason poor teachers are allowed to stay on in 2 words... TENURE and PENSION! Unless they're caught doing something grossly illegal or immoral, they are untouchable.

And...the really smart/greedy ones, disgruntled or not, move on to become a principal (at a 3 per school ratio)...then superentendant... then semi retired golf playing consultant/ interim superentendants and collect additional funding to pad a 6 figure pension in addition to other retirement perks....while our school taxes pay their way.

Now that's Sad.Terribly.Sad.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 4:49pm

Justaguy - I think we do agree on a lot of stuff here. There is NO excuse for apathetic teachers. I agree 100%. The problem is that NCLB gives those teachers an easy out.

kelzama - those things you said are all true - whether they are symptoms or causes though is debatable.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 5:02pm

Jason and Kel pretty much summed it up for me.

And I only have one word for you all.

FCAT.

May it burn in hell.

[kelzama]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 9:35pm

Jason, NCLB is not the cause, as the symptoms have been around and being complained about since I was a child (which, I assure you, was about the time this administration were trying to get through college.

That is not to say that I think NLCB has been a fantastic addition. Quite the contrary, it rewards mediocrity in both teaching and student achievement. The smartest kids are significantly shortchanged. The stupid kids learn how to take one type of test with no analytical thought processes enhanced.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 10/22/07 at 11:14pm

I have no issue with having a certain set of standards for children's education. We should definitely have goals as far as education is concerned. But, to set the goal so high it's unreachable, is just ridiculous. Pennsylvania has stated that by the year 2014 all children...ALL children...will be graduating college ready. Now, anyone who has the most basic understanding of statistics....or any common sense...knows that's impossible. There are kids who can't succeed and those who just don't want to succeed. We will never have a 100% success rate.

In addition, we talk about differentiating instruction, and individualizing programs for children and about teaching different learning styles and giving kids time to rework and edit their work, but then how do we test their understanding? We give them ONE standardized test.

I could go on...but I think for the most part I'm preaching to the choir here!

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 10/23/07 at 8:19am

A few things. First, tenure is a HUGE problem. In theory, it is a good idea because ask almost any teacher and they will tell you that once they have tenure they have more freedom in the classroom. BUT the teachers with tenure need to be reevaluated every few years to make sure they are still doing their job and if they are not there should be consequences.

And the raise thing - teachers deserve the raises they get on the whole. Usually they are still getting less of a raise than inflation is and the raise is so they can keep living. When a teacher does not make enough to be able to live in a small townhouse without roommates, there is a problem.

To the first thing about students not doing well on the second grammar test. That cannot be on the teaching at all. You know why? Because there were plenty of students who got A's. They are the students who care and they have the parents who care and take the time to help them study. SO many students don't give a damn about their grades because they do not have to. They can fail every class and go to the next grade.

Also, most elementary schools are cutting grammar in their lesson plans because...you guessed it! It is not on the state testing! If 7th grade is the first time that students are hearing about nouns, prepositional phrases, and direct objects...that is a problem with the SYSTEM and not the teachers. I know some teachers who are told to skip grammar because the school is not graded on it.

[PB ENT.]

Posted: 10/23/07 at 1:54pm

I am not saying this is a black and white debate. There are many factors as to why our school systems are not where they need to be.

I'm not a teacher, but have been very involoved in the school systems for many years. (I'm currently working with a wonderful musical education program with 3 teachers. http://childrensong.org)

A caring teacher with 20+ years of quality service is worth his/her weight in gold. They're out there and deal with a lot of the messes that bad parenting has created.

BUT...an apathetic teacher who chooses to abuse or neglect their job commitment and their students is worthless and worse ...damaging to kids.

We've all had all sorts of teachers! It's how they made you feel that you remember.