Please try to help out- this is a serious issue- Page 2

[gavrochegirl]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:39pm

DELETED

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 03:39 PM

[QueenMuppet]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:41pm

Believe me, gavrochegirl, you'd know if Namo was attacking you. You'd know it.

QM

[gavrochegirl]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:41pm

I feel so embarassed...

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:48pm

LTE, I'd say it belongs in "kids space" (or "students board") when somebody informs me that I don't even know I am attacking an uninformed 12-year-old but that 12-year-old is assuring me that I am in fact attacking her.

That's a very general recurrent theme that comes up a lot, and really, it DOES belong in a place where people can complain about parents, homework, and "you don't understand" type posts and they are ONLY going to get the response they want, ie, "oh you're right, that's horrible ::hugs::" things that people seem to want.

If people don't really want to talk, debate, hash out stuff, maybe they should seek out a space where people are less inclined to engage in an adult way.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:49pm

As I just said in a PM to Gavrochegirl, part of me applauds her for trying to post something of substance. She thought she was on to something that more people should be aware of, and her intentions were good.

No need to be embarassed, Gav. Now, James Barbour (and yes, I loved him in Jane Eyre and Assassins...), that's a different story. Shame on him.

Edited to add this:

Regarding the Student Board, I'm an advocate, too. I see it more as a "safe" place to post about things that the adults, me included, sometimes get irritated by and obnoxious about on the OT board. The endless "feel sorry for me, school is hell" threads, for instance, no doubt irk any number of other adults working gazillion hour weeks as much as they do me. In my vision, having a student board wouldn't exclude anyone from posting anywhere they wanted, but I, for one, wouldn't feel free to take issue with things posted in a Student Board venue that I have no problem commenting on when posted on the OT board.

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 03:49 PM

[TGIF]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:50pm

Don't worry about it. Just do your research first.

I will say this, however. When I read this I was a bit put off to you, gavrochegirl. "Namo...I'm 12. Okay? "

If younger posters what to be respected and be viewed as equals they can't fall back on "but I'm only twelve!" when they mispost. Not saying all younger posters do that, but I think it just further fuels others anger. (Not saying that I am of the "older posters" - only 19)


Also, Namo, you seem to know alot about The Church of Scientology. I was asked the other day about them (who they are etc.) and I had no idea. So I am extending the question to you. Who the hell are they?!?

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 03:50 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:56pm

That's a really great and interesting question, TGIF. I have been fascinated by the idea of cults since I first attended a talk by an ex-member of the Unification Church that took place just a couple years after the mass suicide/murders in Jonestown (Two unrelated cults.) I had this sense of "there but for the grace of god go I." It was the very early-'80s and I saw how I really fit the profile of somebody who could be vulnerable to the strategies of cults and have done everything I can to read about cults.

Scientology is interesting because of its history of harassment and litigation against its critics. Which is why I would tend not to say much more specific than this on a message board.

But here's an interesting link about its many "front groups." You can also check out Xenu.net for even more in-depth discussion.
front groups

[TGIF]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:58pm

Thanks Namo. I am gonna be doing a bit of reading today it seems!

[gavrochegirl]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 3:59pm

Hey Namo, just to let you know, I'm different. I don't complain about homework (I like homework) or my parents (I love them, even though my dad is a long way from home). I have a good life, and it's better than other kids who aren't even culturally aware in my town. I know I've been saying too much about you attacking me, but I am not some teenager like that. I try my best to make some good posts, because I know in the past, I was new here and didn't know what the hell I was doing. All right? I hope this clears the air for you.

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 03:59 PM

[TGIF]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 4:11pm

Gavrochegirl, I think this subject just knicked the surface of a very heated issue thats been going on here for sometime. I have not joined in on the debate before and I won't today either.

Like Iflit said before, I commend you for attempting a serious thread and try to help out with something you thought of as a serious issue that needed to be corrected. Unfortunately you were misinformed/mislead by other websites. Thats not your fault. I do think that this thread moved away from you and towards Scientology and I am sorry you read things as attacks against you. From what I read, I didn't see anyone attacking you in the posts you thought were. Its all a matter of time and experience of reading others posts and learning personalities to determine whats sarcastic/harsh/dismissive/rude/light-hearted.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 4:52pm

I just don't seem to think this fits in with that issue, Namo, and trust me, I've come to understand your side of the argument. This post had nothing to do with parents, school, or anything remotely related to students alone. Gavroche girl simply didn't know any better - whether it be simply by virtue of her age or not isn't an issue. Ignorance is not exclusive to young people. The fact that this put out your motion for a Student Board again only strengthens the side the idea that you don't simply want it for subject matter, but simply for the mindset attached to said group of people. It looks like you just think that if there were a student board, she should've posted this there because she was young. Whether the issue truly be serious or not, or whether or not the majority of those who DO know better and are better informed agree, this just isn't an issue that has anything to do exclusively with students. I'm sorry, but the fact that you brought it up here doesn't do much but reaffirm the notion that you only want it for the sake of age, not subject matter.

The part that follows about feeling hated, left out, or attacked and "I'm only a kid" sentiments are perhaps more what you're getting at, but they are a result of the subject brought up.

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 04:52 PM

[CatieElphie1]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:00pm

I agree. I think that by excluding younger people, one sets oneself up as someone who does not consider a young person's opinions or contributions as valuable, simply because they are young.
But, since this seems to be an issue, I do not mean this as any sort of insult to any person.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:02pm

Oh, and - on a totally separte note, thanks for the info about Scientology. TGIF and I were talking a bit about it before, and I'd like to read up as well.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:04pm

But by the same token, IF there was a Student Board (there has to be a better name, btw...), and IF Gavrochegirl had CHOSEN to post this there, I would not have taken issue with her. Nor would Namo, if I understand him correctly. It doesn't fix the issue of mis-information, but it *would* afford a certain freedom to post without having to worry about being taken to task by the adults.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:05pm

Yes, and there might not be any "adults" there to show her what that site was really about, either. Think about that.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:06pm

Exactly. What Rath just said is a big part of why I'm against the idea at all.

[TGIF]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:11pm

May I ask a question about this "Studen Board"?

I was under the impression it would be for "school related" threads, or atleast topics about/for school aged people. Why would this thread be on that board?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:15pm

Ah, but the thing that made me clamor for the student board in this thread is what was deleted from the post by gavgirl. It suddenly became about her and me being mean and picking on her and she didn't deserve it because she's 12 and Abba saying, yes, you are picking on her.

At which point the discussion is lost. Perhaps people would feel better in a place where they can discuss that way. Without fear of somebody shoving the harsh light of reality on such issues as benign web links that are actually gateways to a cult?

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:17pm

It's not what you say always, Namo, it's often just the way you say it. And you'll never get that. I'm sure you'll now come at me for all my transgressions, or cut and paste your earlier words in such a way as to "illustrate your point," which is YOUR pattern. I hope you have fun with it, because your superior attitude and aggressive style is becoming ridiculously tiresome to many of the rest of us.

Updated On: 5/15/05 at 05:17 PM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:20pm

Well, I can't comment there; I missed the deleted post. And yes, I will admit to being unsure of the root of your "clamor" - something of that nature, or the original issue.

Even then, though, I don't think if we had a Student Board, gavrochegirl would have, hypothetically speaking, posted this issue there. In having no idea that it wasn't so valid as she thought it was, there was no reason for her to think she's have to facing the harsh realities of what she hadn't realized. She wouldn't have known that this was something that in her position, may have been better discussed where she couldn't recieve criticism for it. But then, if students decided to discuss non-school/parent issue with their peers on this board as well, like Rath said before, there would be no way for them to learn from such mistakes. Eventually, the truth finds you, and it hurts.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:22pm

Well, I speak on behalf of no one but myself, but if it worked as I envision it, she would have had a choice as to where she wanted to post it. If she chose to post it on the OT board, the same thing would happen (as it would have if the person posting it was forty...). If she had chosen to post it on the Student Board, the same thing might have happened, but not at the hands of the "adults". I don't envision rigidity. I wouldn't recommend that an adult could never join a thread on a student board, and I certainly wouldn't recommend that only chronological adults post on the OT board. It would be an option of another place to post, a similar dynamic that happened when the OT board was created. People settle in on a board that is most comfortable for them, but still visit the others.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 5:37pm

One issue I can see with that logic iflitifloat, is that the students may actually be compelled by sources not entirely within their control to move all of their posts to the "student forum" If some members believe that younger poster's thoughts are not as valid and decide to ridicule the posts they put here with statements that this "belongs" on the student board, many younger posters will stop creating threads on the Main or Off-topic board and that will cause important interactions to be hindered just as often as it will stop stupid postings.

The main and off-topic boards are segregated by content, there can be a rational arguement made that "school" topics could have an unbiased third board. It is when we begin to seperate based on temperment and perceived "maturity level" of posters that I (and others) have serious reservations. That is not like the current division at all, it is seeing something you personally dislike and trying to eliminate it.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 6:06pm

"Well, I speak on behalf of no one but myself, ..."

That's really refreshing, Iflit. Perhaps Rathnait can take a page from your book.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 6:08pm

Okay, I will. Bite me, Namo. Although I suspect at this point I speak for many others when I say that, I won't say that I do. It's my own personal feeling. Mine alone. But probably not.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/15/05 at 6:11pm

If this summer ends up being anything like last summer, it won't be much of an issue anymore by September. We lost a lot of "adult" posters last summer; some returned and some did not. I know this is coming across as age-ist, and truly, that is not how I mean it. But last summer, the board took on the look and feel of a teenage chat room...and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Quite a few younger posters, home from school for the summer, were racking up hundreds of posts in a single day. ( And yes, there are adults who have done that, too.) It became so frustrating looking for a thread I might possibly be appropriate for or interested in, that I stopped logging in. And I wasn't alone. I'm not saying that threads started by people my age are better than threads started by people my kid's age. But I *am* saying that frequently, what happens to be of interest to one group, is not at all to the other. With school out for summer, the ratio of "student" threads to "adult" threads gets even more out of balance. When I would come home from work and find that the entire board filled with stuff I couldn't relate to, I wondered what the hell I was doing and logged off.

I don't know. The suggestion of a third board, as I see it, shouldn't be seen as an insult to anyone...just as another option.

And for what it's worth, Penguin, I DO see your point. I'm not sure what the answer is.