#26
Posted: 11/16/04 at 4:28pm
You can't spin the murder of 800+ civilians. How long before the insurgents start using the phrase "The Massacre of Falluja"?
Pottery Barn to open in Fallujah! — Page 2
#27
Posted: 11/16/04 at 5:38pm
to re-iterate, f*** 'em.
as far as the israelis dancing, i would too. they finally have a chance at a real peace now that araf*** is dead.
as far as the israelis dancing, i would too. they finally have a chance at a real peace now that araf*** is dead.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#28
Posted: 11/16/04 at 5:42pm
So you detest the idea of foreigners, people you consider enemies, dancing at the death of your countrymen, yet it is ok for foreigners - people the Palestinians consider enemies - to dance at the death of one of THEIR countrymen?
Hypocrite much?
I would just remind you that Ariel Sharon was once a MAJOR terrorist who killed HUNDREDS of British men & women. I take it you won't mind if I dance on HIS grave? Except of course I won't. Because terrorist or not, enemy or not, there will still be people mourning him and if I cannot respect the man himself, I can respect his family.
Hypocrite much?
I would just remind you that Ariel Sharon was once a MAJOR terrorist who killed HUNDREDS of British men & women. I take it you won't mind if I dance on HIS grave? Except of course I won't. Because terrorist or not, enemy or not, there will still be people mourning him and if I cannot respect the man himself, I can respect his family.
#29
Posted: 11/16/04 at 5:54pm
the palestinians who danced afetr 9/11? those ones? the palestinians who dance and coat themselves in the blood of their fallen? those ones?
please, he was 14 when he joined haganah in 1942 and six years later israel existed. please show the names and causes of death of the hundreds of british he killed in those six years.
please, he was 14 when he joined haganah in 1942 and six years later israel existed. please show the names and causes of death of the hundreds of british he killed in those six years.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#30
Posted: 11/16/04 at 5:57pm
Ariel Sharon was a lot of things, but terrorist was never one of them. His worst battles and most questionable actions were in Lebanon, fighting...terrorists. Oops.
You're mixing up the fight against British colonialism (and they're horribly to blame for this whole mess, too) with the fight for survival that Israel has fought every day since.
Yasser Arafat? Now that guy was a terrorist. A fine pioneer in his field. Look it up.
You're mixing up the fight against British colonialism (and they're horribly to blame for this whole mess, too) with the fight for survival that Israel has fought every day since.
Yasser Arafat? Now that guy was a terrorist. A fine pioneer in his field. Look it up.
#31
Posted: 11/16/04 at 5:59pm
yay! plum and i get to be on the same side finally!!
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#33
Posted: 11/16/04 at 10:37pm
http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/
There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered.
- Nelson Mandela
#34
Posted: 11/16/04 at 11:10pm
I'm so deeply, deeply saddened by all this. And what's even more disturbing is the apparent lack of interest, lack of outrage, and lack of media coverage.
There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to find the ways in which you yourself have altered.
- Nelson Mandela
Updated On: 11/17/04 at 11:10 PM
#35
Posted: 11/16/04 at 11:27pm
and the callous Republicans onboard tomorrow morning will sn* and scoff at those pictures and laugh--because they don't appear on Fox News--they'll say that you can't trust those pictures because they were taken by terrorists--they'll say that war is hell and those people in that city deserved it because they were not people, they were less than people--they were terrorist terrorist terrorist insurgents, even the children, even the dead and dying children, even the legless bloodied future-deprived children--may god forgive us may history forgive us because the children won't forgive us may we forgive ourselves for the mistakes our leaders have made and will continue to make
#36
Posted: 11/17/04 at 3:22am
Plum, from 1947-1948 (when the UN took control of Israel & gave the British the mandate to try to ease the transition) Ariel Sharon was a key figure in leading attacks against the British.
Or is he a "freedom fighter" because America sides with Israel in this conflict? Was Sinn Fein a "freedom fighter" because you could sell him arms?
Amazing how the same country which claims time after time "You cannot negotiate with terrorists" is the country which negotiated business deals with those who committed terrorist acts against British citizens for decades! Or do the places Brighton & Omagh mean nothing to you? BOTH those attacks killed hundreds of people. Both were perpetrated by terrorists. Yet America has not condemned them!
One man's terrorist is another's guerilla fighter, or "freedom" fighter, or patriot - the only difference is whether you're on the winning side or not!
Curtain, I know the feeling. We've had barely any coverage here to, except a screening on 2 news programmes but I get the feeling even we've seen more than you have! But, like I say, it seems that murder is ok if you're on the "winning" team.
Papa, you may scoff at the Rules (or "Articles") of War, but they have existed since pre-Napoleonic times for exactly this reason - so that we can be the victors through moral action as well as sheer might. So that those who join an army because they like to kill can be weeded out & punished. So that occupying forces have a moral justification for their actions. So that we DON'T use war as an excuse for vengence!
If we wish to consider ourselves better than them, we must BEHAVE better than them. Tit-for-tat will get us nowhere except further into violence and hate!
Or is he a "freedom fighter" because America sides with Israel in this conflict? Was Sinn Fein a "freedom fighter" because you could sell him arms?
Amazing how the same country which claims time after time "You cannot negotiate with terrorists" is the country which negotiated business deals with those who committed terrorist acts against British citizens for decades! Or do the places Brighton & Omagh mean nothing to you? BOTH those attacks killed hundreds of people. Both were perpetrated by terrorists. Yet America has not condemned them!
One man's terrorist is another's guerilla fighter, or "freedom" fighter, or patriot - the only difference is whether you're on the winning side or not!
Curtain, I know the feeling. We've had barely any coverage here to, except a screening on 2 news programmes but I get the feeling even we've seen more than you have! But, like I say, it seems that murder is ok if you're on the "winning" team.
Papa, you may scoff at the Rules (or "Articles") of War, but they have existed since pre-Napoleonic times for exactly this reason - so that we can be the victors through moral action as well as sheer might. So that those who join an army because they like to kill can be weeded out & punished. So that occupying forces have a moral justification for their actions. So that we DON'T use war as an excuse for vengence!
If we wish to consider ourselves better than them, we must BEHAVE better than them. Tit-for-tat will get us nowhere except further into violence and hate!
Updated On: 11/17/04 at 03:22 AM
#37
Posted: 11/17/04 at 3:31am
"they'll say that you can't trust those pictures because they were taken by terrorists"
Pal, they can't - not this time. Because the latest video was shot by an American journalist!
Pal, they can't - not this time. Because the latest video was shot by an American journalist!
#38
Posted: 11/17/04 at 8:29am
tit-for-tat
i agree on this. the practice of cutting off breasts and tacking them up on the doors of what's left of insurgent rally points will not buy us any goodwill. but then, nothing will buy us good will from nihilists who have none to sell.
i agree on this. the practice of cutting off breasts and tacking them up on the doors of what's left of insurgent rally points will not buy us any goodwill. but then, nothing will buy us good will from nihilists who have none to sell.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#39
Posted: 11/17/04 at 8:45am
Everyone should read the sobering take on Fallujah on the Times OpEd page today, "A Victory, But Little Gained," by two Dartmouth professors. It offers a very clear-eyed reality check. It backs up its premise with a historical counterinsurgency warfare context (Battle of Algiers, American defeat of Viet Cong at Hue, Russian victory over Chechens), but the basic thesis is stated thusly:
"...While major operations like the attack on Falluja create the appearance of progress, over the last 60 years major powers have learned repeatedly that there is virtually no connection between seizing territory and defeating an insurgency. Insurgents do no seek victory on the battlefield..."
"...While major operations like the attack on Falluja create the appearance of progress, over the last 60 years major powers have learned repeatedly that there is virtually no connection between seizing territory and defeating an insurgency. Insurgents do no seek victory on the battlefield..."
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
#40
Posted: 11/17/04 at 9:50am
Unfortunately, Auggie, the neo-cons who run Dubya's mind don't believe in history. Neither do the googling fools on this board. They think if they say it often enough and forcefully enough it will be true.
To the Iraqis, whose minds and hearts we have hardly won, we are just the latest tyrants. We are not liberators, their lives are not demonstrably better than what they had before, and if something worse comes after us, it too will pass.
We may think democracy is good for them, but that paternalistic attitude only breeds resentment.
To the Iraqis, whose minds and hearts we have hardly won, we are just the latest tyrants. We are not liberators, their lives are not demonstrably better than what they had before, and if something worse comes after us, it too will pass.
We may think democracy is good for them, but that paternalistic attitude only breeds resentment.
#41
Posted: 11/17/04 at 10:28am
tsk, tsk, again with the name calling. if the words of bitter resentful hysterics were bothersome some people might get upset. fortunately they see those folks for what they are and don't give a whit for their shrill squalling.
if this were in fact a popular resistance with widespread support from the people instead of a limited insurgency run by those who were driven from power and fueled by foreign cannon fodder which cannot even maintain the good will of the people it purports to represent when it manages to gain a foothold, i'd be worried. since it's not, i'll leave the chicken little acts to ya'll. have fun.
if this were in fact a popular resistance with widespread support from the people instead of a limited insurgency run by those who were driven from power and fueled by foreign cannon fodder which cannot even maintain the good will of the people it purports to represent when it manages to gain a foothold, i'd be worried. since it's not, i'll leave the chicken little acts to ya'll. have fun.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#42
Posted: 11/17/04 at 5:37pm
IntheMoney, I despise Sharon, and I'm most certainly not proud of a lot of the crap Israel has pulled, but don't for one ****ing second liken my country to a terrorist group. We got our land via UN mandate and have fought for our existence ever since. Not all the tactics used have been right, but no country in the goddamn world can say they always acted properly in war. Not. One.
Israel's military forces are controlled by a government elected by the Israeli people. You know where it's coming from, unlike a terrorist cell controlled by who-knows-what-megalomaniac.
And you're really saying that at age 19-20 Sharon was a "major" figure in anti-British attacks? Seriously? I didn't know that. I want a link.
Israel's military forces are controlled by a government elected by the Israeli people. You know where it's coming from, unlike a terrorist cell controlled by who-knows-what-megalomaniac.
And you're really saying that at age 19-20 Sharon was a "major" figure in anti-British attacks? Seriously? I didn't know that. I want a link.
#43
Posted: 11/17/04 at 6:11pm
i want something too, but it ain't a link! rawr!
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#44
Posted: 11/18/04 at 2:15pm
"IntheMoney, I despise Sharon, and I'm most certainly not proud of a lot of the crap Israel has pulled, but don't for one ****ing second liken my country to a terrorist group. We got our land via UN mandate and have fought for our existence ever since. Not all the tactics used have been right, but no country in the goddamn world can say they always acted properly in war. Not. One."
Firstly, I was not likening your country to a terrorist group. I was calling its leader a terrorist. That's 2 different things. I have nothing against Israel, but everything against those who run it.
Secondly, no. No country can say they have always acted properly in war. But I would hope most of them (my own included) could at least say they always tried.
Thirdly, I believe a while back you made the comment that "throughout history no victor has had to give back the land it won"? (paraphrasing - can't remember which thread it was & no time to look) Er, I assume you're ignoring the European colonies, which were won in battle then returned to the natives for the most part during times of peace?
Finally, you want a link? You need proof that there are Israeli terrorists and that Sharon was one of them? Here you are. Complete with the quotations from each page:
"Consider the following maps, which show Israel's territory in blue in 1947 (as defined by the UN), 1949, 1967, 1982, and 2000. Note that red is occupied territory (see the third map, showing how Israel has expanded to control or occupy the entire region in 1967, including all of the former Palestinian territory as well as the entire Sinai, and the Golan Heights).
"
(so not fighting for its existence - fighting for as much land as it can take)
"The UN delineated Israel's borders in 1948, and then Israel occupied them afterwards.
Check your dates. Israel had been conducting "clearing operations" against Palestinian towns and villages since 1947, long before it had legal status. Zionist forces had been fighting a guerilla war and conducting terrorist attacks since 1945! By the time the UN legalized the borders of Israel, they were drawn around territory already won by military conquest in the 1947-1948 war, thus consecrating an invasion which had driven an estimated 400,000 Palestinians out of their homes."
(I shall return to how this is connected to Sharon in a moment)
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/MiddleEast-2.shtml
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument (You may wish to read this if you doubt my claim that the British held a UN mandate in Israel (Palestine as it was then) during 1947-1948 - it was NOT a British colony!)
"Just to give you another example of who the Israelis really are: in 1946, Menachem Begin’s terrorist organization blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, murdering British nurses, in order to drive the British out of Palestine. Israeli society later rewarded Menachem Begin by electing him Prime Minister. "
http://hateusa.narod.ru/terror.htm#Palestine (The website has an unfortunate URL. The facts stated, and the list of Israeli terrorist activities, are unfortunately true)
"Ariel Sharon was born Ariel Scheinermann in Kfar Malal, mandatory Palestine, on February 27, 1928. He joined the Haganah underground at the age of 14 in 1942 (1947 according to some sources).. "
http://www.mideastweb.org/bio-sharon.htm (So yes, even in his teens Sharon was involved in underground military activities - or, to be more frank, terrorism)
More links - there are hundreds. Try Google under "Ariel Sharon" 1947 1948.
http://www.hanania.com/aaview/col012704.htm
http://www.al-awda.org/historicaldates/
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/palterror.html
Of course, I won't be surprised if you refuse to believe any of this, or express surprise at my findings - after all, many states in the US still teach that WWII began with Pearl Harbour!
Firstly, I was not likening your country to a terrorist group. I was calling its leader a terrorist. That's 2 different things. I have nothing against Israel, but everything against those who run it.
Secondly, no. No country can say they have always acted properly in war. But I would hope most of them (my own included) could at least say they always tried.
Thirdly, I believe a while back you made the comment that "throughout history no victor has had to give back the land it won"? (paraphrasing - can't remember which thread it was & no time to look) Er, I assume you're ignoring the European colonies, which were won in battle then returned to the natives for the most part during times of peace?
Finally, you want a link? You need proof that there are Israeli terrorists and that Sharon was one of them? Here you are. Complete with the quotations from each page:
"Consider the following maps, which show Israel's territory in blue in 1947 (as defined by the UN), 1949, 1967, 1982, and 2000. Note that red is occupied territory (see the third map, showing how Israel has expanded to control or occupy the entire region in 1967, including all of the former Palestinian territory as well as the entire Sinai, and the Golan Heights).
"
(so not fighting for its existence - fighting for as much land as it can take)
"The UN delineated Israel's borders in 1948, and then Israel occupied them afterwards.
Check your dates. Israel had been conducting "clearing operations" against Palestinian towns and villages since 1947, long before it had legal status. Zionist forces had been fighting a guerilla war and conducting terrorist attacks since 1945! By the time the UN legalized the borders of Israel, they were drawn around territory already won by military conquest in the 1947-1948 war, thus consecrating an invasion which had driven an estimated 400,000 Palestinians out of their homes."
(I shall return to how this is connected to Sharon in a moment)
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/MiddleEast-2.shtml
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument (You may wish to read this if you doubt my claim that the British held a UN mandate in Israel (Palestine as it was then) during 1947-1948 - it was NOT a British colony!)
"Just to give you another example of who the Israelis really are: in 1946, Menachem Begin’s terrorist organization blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, murdering British nurses, in order to drive the British out of Palestine. Israeli society later rewarded Menachem Begin by electing him Prime Minister. "
http://hateusa.narod.ru/terror.htm#Palestine (The website has an unfortunate URL. The facts stated, and the list of Israeli terrorist activities, are unfortunately true)
"Ariel Sharon was born Ariel Scheinermann in Kfar Malal, mandatory Palestine, on February 27, 1928. He joined the Haganah underground at the age of 14 in 1942 (1947 according to some sources).. "
http://www.mideastweb.org/bio-sharon.htm (So yes, even in his teens Sharon was involved in underground military activities - or, to be more frank, terrorism)
More links - there are hundreds. Try Google under "Ariel Sharon" 1947 1948.
http://www.hanania.com/aaview/col012704.htm
http://www.al-awda.org/historicaldates/
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/palterror.html
Of course, I won't be surprised if you refuse to believe any of this, or express surprise at my findings - after all, many states in the US still teach that WWII began with Pearl Harbour!
#45
Posted: 11/18/04 at 5:27pm
Firstly, I was not likening your country to a terrorist group. I was calling its leader a terrorist.
My mistake. But as I'll point out in greater detail below, terrorists are fighters without a state. The Founding Fathers were terrorists of a sort. The difference lies in what you do once you have the opportunity to get your country. Israel settles down into a relatively stable democracy. Arafat, given a really generous offer by Barak and Clinton, refused it. He was on the edge of finally becoming the statesman he fancied himself, but he turned it down. He blew it, plain and simple. Some revolutionaries live for the thrill of always fighting, and I think Arafat was that way. I can't think of any other reason why he'd turn that offer down. Barak risked getting himself killed like Rabin, offering what he did. Sharon, I would put closer to Arafat. He wants to keep fighting and fighting. And like I said, I hate him for that.
Secondly, no. No country can say they have always acted properly in war. But I would hope most of them (my own included) could at least say they always tried.
Bloody hell, do you think most Israelis really go around thinking, "I'd like the Army to blow up a few Palestinians today?" Soldiers aren't trained to go around abusing people, and the system isn't made for atrocities, believe it or not. If Israel wasn't trying, dontcha think at some point they would have just said "to Hell with it" and gone carpet-bombing?
I'll be the first to say that Israeli troops have done horrid things, and Sharon has been responsible for some of them. But think about how many Israelis have, in turn, been massacred by Arab forces over the years, and the atrocities that have been committed against us in turn. I'm sick of revenge games, but you dare place it all on us. Just because you don't have an official Palestinian government to place it on doesn't mean that that side has never done anything.
The PLO was founded as a terrorist group, plain and simple, but when Arafat made a play at being a "statesman" everyone seemed to forget that. Heck, ask Jordan about the time the PLO tried to take them over. They, and other Arabs, did unspeakably disgusting things to Jews for years. I'm not even going into Hamas and Co.
Thirdly, I believe a while back you made the comment that "throughout history no victor has had to give back the land it won"?
No, I never said that.
So not fighting for its existence - fighting for as much land as it can take
F*CK you. For some extremist morons (there's idiots on both sides), this is about land grabs. And I hate the settlements, hate the fanatic idiots who think we have some kind of Manifest Destiny there. (Ooh, sound familiar?) But we gave up the Sinai, and I think we should give up most of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, if we can make it work securely in the Jerusalem area. Most people in Israel don't like the settlements, and plenty of people have always hated Sharon. My dad was part of the largest political protest in Israel's history (at the time; this might have changed since), marching against Sharon's actions.
Regarding your links- is it too much to ask for something from respectable government/academic/news organizations? I'm actually not being critical here; I know it's hard to find detailed info from places like that. I, unfortunately, have come across almost nothing but obviously biased sites when looking for information, so I'm going to try to get my hands on the excellent PBS history of the problem again. It's super-long but very good at documenting the history of these things from a relatively neutral perspective.
But seriously, I'm in an extremely bad mood right now, and I'm not going to read through things that begin with the words "Israeli propaganda." Sorry. I don't need that kind of stress in the middle of finals.
Of course there were "Israeli" terrorists. Before Israel was a country. Once again, I say that armies are different than terrorists because you know who's behind things. There's a democratically elected government behind things, there's a relatively transparent decision-making process going on. You want to see the headquarters of the Israeli Army, they're right there for you. Terrorist groups are not official, they have no transparency, they aren't affiliated with any government. They don't join the UN, they don't have embassies, they don't play by the rules of respectable nations. They hijack airplanes and hold hostages and deliberately go to crowded nightclubs to blow themselves up. They deal in drugs and extortion.
To call the Israeli Army terrorists today is moronic, like saying the American Army is a bunch of terrorists because they started out rebelling against the British. Israel, as a country, has committed war crimes (though I say its enemies have perpetrated far, far more), but you simply can't define them as terrorists.
I want a Palestinian state. I really, really do. I also want to stop worrying every day about my entire family and many of my old friends, who are currently living and working and serving in the military in Israel. If the Palestinians get a state, and a real government, and their own armed forces, and then fight with Israel, it'll be a different story. You understand? That's a war between states. There's people wearing uniforms- you know who's civilian and who's military and who to shoot.
I'm tired of revenge. I don't want revenge against Palestinians, and I'm sick and tired of them wanting revenge against me. Revenge solves nothing. Just don't act as if Israel is a big fat bully persecuting poor helpless innocent Arabs. There's no one innocent here, and there never was.
Ariel Sharon was born Ariel Scheinermann in Kfar Malal, mandatory Palestine, on February 27, 1928. He joined the Haganah underground at the age of 14 in 1942 (1947 according to some sources)
Well, no ****. I already acknowledged that. I know quite well Sharon joined the Haganah in his teens. But you called him a "major figure" in anti-British terrorist attacks. Once again, I say, really? At 19 or 20 years old? That's some quick advancement, even for a good soldier like Sharon.
Of course, I won't be surprised if you refuse to believe any of this, or express surprise at my findings - after all, many states in the US still teach that WWII began with Pearl Harbour!
Oh, of course. It's so easily to automatically assume I'm an ignorant result of the horrid U.S. public schools program, isn't it? I'm Israeli-born, you twat, and I went to some pretty good American public schools. But it's so much easier to be a condescending **** than to actually treat posters who have engaged you in debate with respect, isn't it? Go to hell. Or better yet, Antarctica, the only blame-free place in the world.
My mistake. But as I'll point out in greater detail below, terrorists are fighters without a state. The Founding Fathers were terrorists of a sort. The difference lies in what you do once you have the opportunity to get your country. Israel settles down into a relatively stable democracy. Arafat, given a really generous offer by Barak and Clinton, refused it. He was on the edge of finally becoming the statesman he fancied himself, but he turned it down. He blew it, plain and simple. Some revolutionaries live for the thrill of always fighting, and I think Arafat was that way. I can't think of any other reason why he'd turn that offer down. Barak risked getting himself killed like Rabin, offering what he did. Sharon, I would put closer to Arafat. He wants to keep fighting and fighting. And like I said, I hate him for that.
Secondly, no. No country can say they have always acted properly in war. But I would hope most of them (my own included) could at least say they always tried.
Bloody hell, do you think most Israelis really go around thinking, "I'd like the Army to blow up a few Palestinians today?" Soldiers aren't trained to go around abusing people, and the system isn't made for atrocities, believe it or not. If Israel wasn't trying, dontcha think at some point they would have just said "to Hell with it" and gone carpet-bombing?
I'll be the first to say that Israeli troops have done horrid things, and Sharon has been responsible for some of them. But think about how many Israelis have, in turn, been massacred by Arab forces over the years, and the atrocities that have been committed against us in turn. I'm sick of revenge games, but you dare place it all on us. Just because you don't have an official Palestinian government to place it on doesn't mean that that side has never done anything.
The PLO was founded as a terrorist group, plain and simple, but when Arafat made a play at being a "statesman" everyone seemed to forget that. Heck, ask Jordan about the time the PLO tried to take them over. They, and other Arabs, did unspeakably disgusting things to Jews for years. I'm not even going into Hamas and Co.
Thirdly, I believe a while back you made the comment that "throughout history no victor has had to give back the land it won"?
No, I never said that.
So not fighting for its existence - fighting for as much land as it can take
F*CK you. For some extremist morons (there's idiots on both sides), this is about land grabs. And I hate the settlements, hate the fanatic idiots who think we have some kind of Manifest Destiny there. (Ooh, sound familiar?) But we gave up the Sinai, and I think we should give up most of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, if we can make it work securely in the Jerusalem area. Most people in Israel don't like the settlements, and plenty of people have always hated Sharon. My dad was part of the largest political protest in Israel's history (at the time; this might have changed since), marching against Sharon's actions.
Regarding your links- is it too much to ask for something from respectable government/academic/news organizations? I'm actually not being critical here; I know it's hard to find detailed info from places like that. I, unfortunately, have come across almost nothing but obviously biased sites when looking for information, so I'm going to try to get my hands on the excellent PBS history of the problem again. It's super-long but very good at documenting the history of these things from a relatively neutral perspective.
But seriously, I'm in an extremely bad mood right now, and I'm not going to read through things that begin with the words "Israeli propaganda." Sorry. I don't need that kind of stress in the middle of finals.
Of course there were "Israeli" terrorists. Before Israel was a country. Once again, I say that armies are different than terrorists because you know who's behind things. There's a democratically elected government behind things, there's a relatively transparent decision-making process going on. You want to see the headquarters of the Israeli Army, they're right there for you. Terrorist groups are not official, they have no transparency, they aren't affiliated with any government. They don't join the UN, they don't have embassies, they don't play by the rules of respectable nations. They hijack airplanes and hold hostages and deliberately go to crowded nightclubs to blow themselves up. They deal in drugs and extortion.
To call the Israeli Army terrorists today is moronic, like saying the American Army is a bunch of terrorists because they started out rebelling against the British. Israel, as a country, has committed war crimes (though I say its enemies have perpetrated far, far more), but you simply can't define them as terrorists.
I want a Palestinian state. I really, really do. I also want to stop worrying every day about my entire family and many of my old friends, who are currently living and working and serving in the military in Israel. If the Palestinians get a state, and a real government, and their own armed forces, and then fight with Israel, it'll be a different story. You understand? That's a war between states. There's people wearing uniforms- you know who's civilian and who's military and who to shoot.
I'm tired of revenge. I don't want revenge against Palestinians, and I'm sick and tired of them wanting revenge against me. Revenge solves nothing. Just don't act as if Israel is a big fat bully persecuting poor helpless innocent Arabs. There's no one innocent here, and there never was.
Ariel Sharon was born Ariel Scheinermann in Kfar Malal, mandatory Palestine, on February 27, 1928. He joined the Haganah underground at the age of 14 in 1942 (1947 according to some sources)
Well, no ****. I already acknowledged that. I know quite well Sharon joined the Haganah in his teens. But you called him a "major figure" in anti-British terrorist attacks. Once again, I say, really? At 19 or 20 years old? That's some quick advancement, even for a good soldier like Sharon.
Of course, I won't be surprised if you refuse to believe any of this, or express surprise at my findings - after all, many states in the US still teach that WWII began with Pearl Harbour!
Oh, of course. It's so easily to automatically assume I'm an ignorant result of the horrid U.S. public schools program, isn't it? I'm Israeli-born, you twat, and I went to some pretty good American public schools. But it's so much easier to be a condescending **** than to actually treat posters who have engaged you in debate with respect, isn't it? Go to hell. Or better yet, Antarctica, the only blame-free place in the world.
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