So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)- Page 7

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/6/14 at 4:42pm

Joey, I'm truly sorry you feel about me that way. That I'm a Jewish anti-Semite one-sidedly criticizing Israel in order to revel in blaming the Jews.

I will try to take comfort from the fact that you then most likely feel the same way about Tony Kushner, Ed Asner, Wally Shawn, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Rabbi Henry Siegman, Rabbi Laurie zimmerman, Rabbi Buzz Bogage, Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb, Eve Ensler, Naomi Klein, the late Howard Zinn, Baruch Kimmerling and Adrienne Rich, Gloria Steinem.... the whole bunch of us who think critically about Israel.

But allow me one moment of ethnic pride:

At the risk of sounding chauvinistic, I happen to believe that if only more people throughout the world and all its demographics thought as critically as so many "self-loathing" Jews do about their own respective establishments, if only more people freely questioned group authority as much as some of us "internalized Judeophobes," then this world just might be a much better place.

Tazber, you wrote:


" Israelis involved in this have admitted such, conceding that they were involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. a campaign just as hateful as those that produced mass Jewish diasporas from the same land across the centuries. That, my friends, is genocidal.

That is just simply not true. False. Bogus. Made up.

The Jews have never systematically participated in ethnic cleansing.


I'm going to assume you got that from one of your media sources that isn't biased against Israel."

your assumption is incorrect Updated On: 8/6/14 at 04:42 PM

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 8/6/14 at 5:07pm

...digging the hole deeper...? (henrik)
As per Pal Joey - another great discussion on the history of WORDS.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/are-the-sins-of-israel-visited-on-europes-jews/

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/6/14 at 5:24pm

I don't regret anything I've said, Tiny.

The reactionary anti-Semitism in Europe - and, thank you Joey, your'e correct, elsewhere including Boston - in recent weeks is deplorable.

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 05:24 PM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 8/6/14 at 5:27pm

From my original post:
Let's talk about the Israel/Gaza conflict! I can't believe there isn't a thread already. Actually, I can. Because like on so many places on the internet it will quickly devolve into a series of emotional and unreasonable one-sided arguments. Criticism of Hamas will be seen by some as unquestioning support for Israel's action in Gaza. Criticism of Israel's methods in their Gaza strike or the proportionality of their attacks will be seen by some as support for Hamas - or worse - anti-Antisemitism.


What took you jackballs so long?

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 12:52am

Enough has been said to henrik about his backward view of what "racism" and "genocide" and "anti-Semitism" is, so I won't go into that.

The only thing I'll correct you on is that you asked about "what if the US were occupied [like Gaza is}," basically. (I'm paraphrasing). First of all--it's not. There is no occupation. There has been NO occupation of Gaza since 2005. Every credible news source, and even some of the typically biased ones, have stated this fact. Because it is a fact. So, all your backward thinking aside, you can't use "occupation" as an argument because it simply is not the case right here in present day 2014. All the more reason to keep Hamas down.

Blockade? I have no problem with it. There are killers shooting rockets from behind it.

Perhaps if the powers that be, currently negotiating in Cairo with both sides, would say "hey, Hamas, NO ONE WILL HELP YOU AS LONG AS YOU KEEP SHOOTING ROCKETS AT A LAND THAT IS JUST NOT YOURS, wah-wah, deal with it," they might stop violence and negotiate civilly, and gain some credibility and international help that they seek.

I suspect this ultimatum has already been put forth several times in the last 60 years, which is why no other Arab country will let the Palestinians in, either.

Carry on.



EDIT: PS--thanks, PJ, for searching out the actual India reporter link. I had the same thought as you did about the perception of showing an IDF link, but figured someone would have the time to do it. :)

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 12:52 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 8:11am

Here's the argument:

In terms of international law, Gaza is occupied because Israel controls Gaza (it might also be argued with equal force that Egypt is also an occupier).

Moreover, Gaza is part of Palestine which is recognized as a state by the U.N., and inarguably, Palestine is occupied because the West Bank is occupied.

Consider New Mexico being fully occupied by the Russians, who had merely blockaded California, and California fought against Russia. Would anyone argue that militants in California couldn't fight back against Russia because California is merely blockaded? I seriously doubt it.

These are arguments being raised by John Dugard (see below) who is calling on both Hamas and Israel to be prosecuted for war crimes. And arguing that Israel can not claim self-defense against an occupied people who are fighting back against an occupation. But, I guess, Dugard, like myself, is going to be accused of being backward and one-sided.

By the way, this is from Democracy Now. It remains to be scene if CNN will cover Dugard's position, or, more importantly, how receptively - i.e. one-sidedly and therefore anti-Israel - it would be to it if it does cover it.

Finally, I"m not calling anyone's viewpoint creepy or backward. i would really appreciate the same courtesy. But, hey, if I don't get it, I'll deal.







link Updated On: 8/7/14 at 08:11 AM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 8:46am

Until the PLO can properly and publicly acknowledge that one of their "partners," Hamas, is a terrorist organization, as labeled/defined by both the US State Department and the United Nations, the PLO is just as guilty -- if not more -- of war crimes on its own citizens. By deflecting this fact, Henrik, you do sympathize with terrorists; whether you wish to believe that or not. You are no better than the PLO cronies too arrogant, or afraid, to speak out against Hamas and no better than the Islamic jihadists who launch rockets into Israel with the blockade as its justification. Bullsh*t.

[tazber]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 8:49am

These analogies you are posting are increasingly inaccurate.

To use New Mexico as an illustration is vastly reductive.

It discounts the myriad of issues that make the Israel/Palestine situation so complex.

I understand that they are supposed to clarify Dugard's point, but all they really do is undermine his credibility.


You know what is comparable to the situation in Israel? Nothing.

Because in no situation that I've seen used as an illustration has one side had the total annihilation of the other side in their charter.

How can there ever be any compromise when Hamas refuses to ever accept Israel? Not just the land, but the existence of the entire Jewish people.

As any conscientious and empathetic person I weep for the innocent in Gaza. The tragedy is massive.

But, due to Hamas and their unchanging position of death to all Jews, largely unavoidable.

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 08:49 AM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 8:50am

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS (selections):


Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)


On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



Source

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 9:01am

I was responding to the argument that Gaza is not occupied. Of course Israel and Palestine are a unique historical phenomenon. I never said it wasn't. However, both Israel and Palestine have to answer to international law. And international law, like all law, is based to a great extent on precedent from other historical contexts. In this framework, similarities and distinctions and calls for modification of international precedents can then be argued for and against.

I am not trying to be reductive. I am merely responding to analogies from other contexts in kind with analogies from other contexts. You can't have it both ways. You can't offer "what if the U.S. were being fired on by Canada" and then object to similar counterexamples as reductive and ignoring the specificity of the situation.

I do not sympathize with terrorists. I am merely contesting the ironic complaint that reportage which attempts to be balanced in describing this unique historical situation is objectionably one-sided.

To argue this is to also have to argue that Haaretz, Israel's left newspaper, is anti-Israel and one-sided because it presents all points of views. Of course some on the extreme Israeli right would argue exactly that.

My examples are not offered to oversimplify or reduce. Quite the contrary. They are offered to show just how incredibly complex this conflict is. And they are offered to rebut arguments which are offered precisely in an effort to oversimplify and reduce it in an utterly pro-Isrrael policy way without recognizing the specific complexities inherent in the conflict.

Here's another analogy. To accuse me of sympathizing with terrorists is equivalent to accusing me of being anti-American because I was against the Iraq War. Reductive, perhaps. But as I am becoming the object of more and more scathing derision - from some though not all, and not from all who disagree with me - on this thread, I am beginning to think that in this instance the reduction is perfectly apt.

This conflict is a loaded topic. People react when confronted with opposing views. Friends have lost friends over voicing their opinions in the last few weeks many times. I was hoping it could be discussed here with civility and honesty and without fear of personal attack. I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. But I am not afraid of raising questions and expressing my opinion, which is subject to change. It has certainly evolved over the years.

But it is unfortunate that one can't feel free to discuss this conflict candidly, and not self-censor a dissenting belief, without being accused of sympathy with terrorists or of being creepy or anti-Semitic.

I feel as if I have treated everyone on this thread with respect. I no longer feel as if I am being respected by everyone.

I'm done.









Updated On: 8/7/14 at 09:01 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 9:18am

You are correct that my previous analogy re: Canada was inappropriate.

I was going to change it, but for the sake of the thread's clarity I decided to leave it.

However, I stand by my assertion that there is no analogy that could ever capture the essence of the Israeli conflict.

Regarding the blockade, I find it interesting that whenever I see it brought up it's usually presented in terms of Israel being the aggressor as if the blockade was based in an inherent desire of Israel to harm the Palestinians.

I never see it mentioned that the blockade is to keep out weapons (and now probably concrete). Humanitarian aid as well as a ton of other materials have been allowed in.

3 billion dollars worth of concrete that was to be used for schools, hospitals, and other institutions that were supposed to make life in Gaza better was instead used for tunnels. Tunnels whose purpose was to aid in the annihilation of Jews.

And what of Egypt? Their blockade has choked Gaza as much as Israel's. And they're not even fighting for their very existence. I don't see many people couch their criticism of Egypt in vitriolic rhetoric.

In fact, they have emerged as the main peacemaker now.

How can that not be seen as reporting bias?

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 09:18 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 9:24am

Thanks you, Tazber. I know I said I was done. But I would add only that if you reread my posts you will find that i took care to point out - and, if I recall correctly, I believe I have done so more than once - precisely that important fact you are now raising, that Egypt is also blockading Gaza.

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 09:24 AM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 9:33am

Here's another analogy. To accuse me of sympathizing with terrorists is equivalent to accusing me of being anti-American because I was against the Iraq War. Reductive, perhaps.

Yes, extremely reductive because you cannot compare the two.

Despite what some Republicans erroneously claimed at the time, Iraq had never directly attacked the US on its own soil. Were they a threat to do so? Sure, but they were not firing rockets into our country. Hamas, on the other hand, is firing and attacking and raping and kidnapping. Israel is reacting in self defense and reacting very strongly; perhaps it's just the strength of response to the terrorists that you do not like. Well, so be it.

My point is: no one opposing the Iraq War could be considered anti-American, because America was not acting in defense of its national security or for the welfare of its people. It initiated the conflict and attack, and under false assumptions too. Israel, however, is engaged in direct warfare with a terror organization. You know it is possible to feel sadness and empathy for the Palestine civilians even if you support the measures taken by Israel, right?

Henrik. I have no problem with you blaming Israel or announcing they should be charged with war crimes, even if I strongly disagree. My problem is that you're not really holding Hamas -- and the weakened PLO bowing to these Islamic Jihadists -- responsible for the atrocities. They provoked this conflict, they are breaking hundreds of international laws, and they continue to push against the negotiations taking place in Egypt. If there is any one group that should be demonized and blamed, it is Hamas. Not Israel.

Please take a look at the Charter I posted earlier. Israel has no desire to negotiate, or live, with a group of radicals who wish to obliterate Israel. Can you really blame them for that?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 10:30am

The reactionary anti-Semitism in Europe in recent weeks is deplorable.

Why talk about Judeophobia only in places as far away as Europe, when the demonstrators in Boston two weeks ago shouted "Jews Back to Birkenau!" and "Drop dead, Zionazi whores!"

And so it happens in Boston...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 2:07pm

Meanwhile, ISIS is committing legitimate genocide against the Yazidis, an ethnic minority in northwest Iraq--and other ethnic minorities in Iraq--and the henrikegermans piling on to criticize Israel give a FLYING F*CK about this very real and genuinely criminal genocide.

Why is there no outcry? Because they can't blame the Jews.






CNN: Iraqi Yazidi lawmaker: 'Hundreds of my people are being slaughtered'

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 02:07 PM

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 2:50pm

'Perhaps if the powers that be, currently negotiating in Cairo with both sides, would say "hey, Hamas, NO ONE WILL HELP YOU AS LONG AS YOU KEEP SHOOTING ROCKETS AT A LAND THAT IS JUST NOT YOURS, wah-wah, deal with it," they might stop violence and negotiate civilly, and gain some credibility and international help that they seek.'

Or after bombing UN designated safe havens (schools), killing innocent people playing football on the beach and the only power station, why don't the Jews just clear off and give the land back that wasn't theirs in the first place, which they took off 700.000 Palestine's that NOW live in dis-placed tented cities.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 2:59pm

Oh my. You, Limeys, have a bigger history of taking land that wasn't yours.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 3:03pm

Perhaps if the British had not promised the same piece of land to three different groups with the Balfour declaration, we would also not be in this mess.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 3:13pm

^ Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner.

ETA:

And, in response to Phantom Jew Hater, I simply repost a portion of the charter that Hamas is so quick to tout... Unless they're appearing on American television.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August

18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

(Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

Covenant:



Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)



On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble) Updated On: 8/7/14 at 03:13 PM

[tazber]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 3:25pm

Well for sure that's true, YWIW.

And let me also mention that after Israel was established every Muslim country coordinated an attack on Israel exclusively because they were Jews.

During that war (which Israel had nothing to do with starting) they captured what is now Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and part of the Sinai Peninsula.

Having those pieces of land is strategic to Israel's defenses.

But this is the point I'm making: Israel gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt once they mutually agreed to live as neighbors and not enemies.

They returned the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians in good faith that they would at the very least tolerate each other.

After that debacle it becomes crystal clear how those pre-67 borders are not something that can ever be negotiable until Hezballah and Hamas commit to renouncing their deeply held belief that all Jews must die.


ETA for clarity: Israel also captured East Jerusalem during the 6 Day War.
But that's a whole other discussion in and of itself.

Updated On: 8/7/14 at 03:25 PM

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 4:17pm

No I am not a Jew hater, I disagree with Israel and how it hides behind and bankrolled by America, like a bully in the playground who runs and hides behind someone who can fight. That doesn't mean I am a Jew hater, I love musical theatre so how can I be a Jew hater? Some of the greatest scientists have been Jewish. My very own grandfather laid his life down in the Second World War, to stop Nazism, a war that America didn't want to get involved despite the persecution of millions of Jews.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 4:22pm

As the old punchline goes, "Of course you're not an anti-Semite. You only act like one."

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 4:27pm

You know, as an American first and a Jew second, I can tell you that I am completely gutted by what is happening between Israel and Gaza right now. To me, there is no single right answer. Israel has a right to defend her self, but I am very uncomfortable with the level of force and the number of civilian casualties resulting from her doing so.

Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas, intentionally baiting Israel to respond and cause civilian casualties, which it does.

Egypt blockades in the same way Israel does (with out the same level of threat - I do not see any tunnels going into Egypt to attack its citizens) yet only Israel is targeted for for condemnation for such actions.

No Arab state wants to take in the Palestinians, but only Israel is again identified in much of the press as denying access. We hold Israel to a different standard than its neighbors. Whether that is fair or not, well who knows.

Meanwhile, in Iraq, Syria and other states, mass executions and genocide go on, without the level of angst directed towards Israel.

How much force is too much force? If you are Israel, the answer seems very different then if you are Iraq or Syria. Do I think any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic - no. I think that there is a basis for criticism for some of Israel's response. But, I do think that there is some Antisemitism at play here - that the story is often shaded as if Israel acts without provocation, and without understanding of what Hamas does. If Hamas was not firing rockets from these areas, Israel would not respond - but rarely do you hear coverage indicating that. In a very bad analogy it is almost like a sporting event where the ref only sees the reaction, not the low blow that triggered it. I sometimes feel like Israel's response is playing right into Hamas' hand. Meanwhile, the Palestinian people, as much as anyone, are the victims of Hamas, being used as pawns to advance the agenda already outlined by other posters on this thread.

I firmly believe that many Palestinians and Israelis want to live side by side in peace, but leadership (primarily Hamas, but I do think Netenyahu is a hawk in the worst sort of way) prevents this from happening.

Again, one of Bush II's biggest blunders was forcing election in the Gaza Strip. That gave Hamas resources and a level of legitimacy that previously had not existed. Not until Hamas either revokes it charter, or is removed from the area will there truly be any chance for peace.

Anyway, that's my babbling.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 4:48pm

I firmly believe that many Palestinians and Israelis want to live side by side in peace, but leadership (primarily Hamas, but I do think Netenyahu is a hawk in the worst sort of way) prevents this from happening.

Ironically enough it is the PLO, who once championed a peaceful two-state solution, who are just as guilty as Hamas. More so than Israel and Netenyahu. It's true that Gaza is essentially controlled by Hamas thanks, in part, to a forced 2006 election but look at the breakdown of Palestinian council members. Hamas does not control majority and it is not legitimatized because of the elections; it's legitimized because the PLO is too terrified, naive, and/or apathetic to speak out against them. The PLO always stresses how concerned they are about making sure Hamas is "properly represented" in talks, even as their own citizens continue to needlessly die because of Hamas' irresponsible actions (Hey, Phantom, care to comment on that at all?). No Palestinian politician is brave enough to publicly address the fact that the Hamas Charter calls for the obliteration of Israel and the destruction of all Jews. Not one interview I have seen leads to any recognition or acknowledgement of this despite Hamas continuing to hijack its governance. While Israel certainly deserves some blame, it should come nowhere close to the amount of blame reserved for Hamas and the PLO.

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/7/14 at 10:09pm

This thread makes me feel ill. What I glean from living my life is that everyone hates Jews. And there are so few of us in the world, and Israel is a tiny little country trying to stay alive against those who hate them and would like the kill every one of them. This is nothing new, is it?

I don't want to read the anti Israel posts and their reasoning for being so.

So, that's how I feel and I'll stay out of this thread so I don't have to read those posts.