Southern manners
Southern manners
#1Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 1:27pm
I didn't realize y'all had caught on to the "bless your heart" thing
#2Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 1:40pmI don't understand why the guys at the bar are an example of "bad manners." They sat down and were reading the menu, presumably to order food (which would be rather uncomfortable to eat standing up). It's not like they were at a dinner party or on a subway. If they were at a table in the restaurant, and it was at capacity, would the maitre d' have expected them to give up their table if two female patrons came in?
#3Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 1:46pm
I agree, Calvin. I can only think it's that the men weren't going to eat at the bar and the women were going to drink there. But that certainly wasn't made clear. In other words, "Since you're going to be getting up in a moment, would you mind letting them have the seats?"
And even so, it's an outrageous request.
#4Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:09pm
Here's a reporting of the original story.
http://www.examiner.com/arts-in-atlanta/atlanta-tavern-accused-of-discrimination-again
The episode happened in 2006, so I guess manners actually died then.
Updated On: 11/1/11 at 02:09 PM
#5Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:13pm
During the February 2003 NBA All Star game, Tavern management knew the restaurant would get a large influx of black patrons so it hung up two large "Welcome Rodeo Fans" banners and instructed its musicians to play country music, Chris Pappas, a former operating partner of the Tavern, testified. Even though a bull riding event was in town that week, this was done to deter black NBA fans from entering the restaurant, he said.
Passive-aggressive racism -- now THERE'S the southern hospitality I remember!
#6Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:20pm
The story is pretty unclear. If the guys were there just looking over the menu to decide if they wanted to eat there, without intending to order anything at the bar, they could do so standing up without it being a big deal. I guess it really depends on the motivations of the two men and their attitude when asked if they would give up their seats. If it was an issue of "manners" or thinly veiled racism (and with a 35% African American population in Atlanta, it seems a bit odd, but nothing is inconceivable in this country), a $3M lawsuit smells sort of fishy considering this is not a hugely upscale restaurant nor is it connected to a large national chain.
But if the subject is Southern manners, that is a notion that persisted within only a few states in the Southeast and was only perpetuated by a tiny percentage of wealthy socialites and historical fanatics. As the article explains, "manners" evolved into nothing more than a habitual set of expressions that long ago lost their sincerity. People should be replacing the outdated notion of manners with behavior based on respect.
#7Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:27pm
From another source:
"The controversy started on Aug. 11, 2006, when Carroll, who was taken first overall in the 1980 NBA draft by the Golden State Warriors and is now an investment adviser, met Shaw at the Tavern's bar and ordered drinks and appetizers.
Two white women walked up to the bar and the bartender asked Carroll and Shaw to relinquish their seats to the female patrons. Carroll and Shaw declined, saying they were not ready to leave.
The bar management then offered to get the men a table but they refused.
The Tavern's operating partner, Heather Dennis, called an off-duty Atlanta police officer who provided security and had Carroll and Shaw escorted out. Carroll and Shaw contend they were removed from the bar because they were black, constituting a civil rights violation of public accommodations laws.
Greer acknowledged Dennis could have been more diplomatic during the confrontation, but he reminded jurors that only two former employees contended the restaurant's strategy was to keep the crowds white. He noted other former employees disputed that assertion and that no other patrons testified they had suffered discrimination.
Everybody has testified to you that it was a racially mixed environment, Greer told jurors. This is a race case. They have to prove to you they were asked to get up from their seat and made to leave the bar because of their race.
#8Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:40pm
"As the article explains, "manners" evolved into nothing more than a habitual set of expressions that long ago lost their sincerity."
That's not what I got from the article.
#9Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 2:56pm
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was commenting on this portion of the NY Times article:
Manners also helped create the Souths famous bless your heart culture a powerful way of seeming to be polite without being genuine.
Manners are often a way of distancing and maintaining space, said William Ferris, a University of North Carolina folklorist who edited the Encyclopedia of Southern Culture with Mr. Wilson. If someone is polite, you better be careful and consider what that politeness veils.
#11Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 3:46pm
Yeah, it is, really.
I find the topic interesting, but this article didn't do much to illuminate it.
#12Southern manners
Posted: 11/1/11 at 3:56pmIt's really poorly written. Surely the writer could have found a more relevant anecdote for an opening than a five-year-old story that presents much deeper questions than that of bad manners.
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