Why Are Public Schools So Bad At Hiring Good Instructors?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:11am

This is an interesting article about the malaise of bad teachers in the public school system and why it happens.

Opinions?
Hot For The Wrong Teacher

[nmartin]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:24am

I've taught in public schools for twenty-one years. In my experience it is impossible to get rid of a fully certified teacher, no matter how ineffective. With whom will they be replaced? Teacher shortages in my part of the country are a major concern.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:27am

shoot them. replace them with dogs. at least the dogs would not be actively harming the children.

[scamp3]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:29am

It seems that teachers don't get compensated very well for all the crap they have to put up with.

If schools offered their faculties more support (both fiscally and in terms of backing them up when discipline issues arise) perhaps morale would be higher and performance would improve.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:35am

i saw an entire school full of teachers who could not spell (i used to count the spelling arrors on their chalkboards in the morning), could barely read or speak (faculty meetings were an adventure) and who were contemptuous toward the children and everyone else. they should all have been killed as examples. throwing money at the problem is not a solution as our schools prove. you kill a few bad ones and the rest will shape up.

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:41am

"you kill a few bad ones and the rest will shape up."

Again, I am forced to agree. There is almost nothing this method won't improve: Chain gangs, marching bands, boy scout troops....

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:43am

This is from the "Things I Will NEVER Forget No Matter How Long I Live" file:

I was teaching a BASIC SKILLS Class at a large Northeastern university, and one of my student--who planned to be a lawyer AND who had gotten STRAIGHT A's in English for 4 years at the high school he'd attended--wrote in his journal:

"Today we wented over verb tenses and now I knows them."

Straight A's.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:43am

"(i used to count the spelling arrors on their chalkboards in the morning),"

Are you trying to be ironic again, Papa?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 11:59am

i wish i was that good, jag.

my favorite was: rite an assay on the american guvernmint

[StockardFan]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:15pm

Not all public school teachers are bad. I have to agree that it's impossible to get rid of a tenured teacher, and sometimes they are the ones who have gotten so bored with their jobs that they become ineffective.

Different school systems are very different also. I used to teach high school in one of the good ones.

As far as the spelling, I blame computers and texting! At least partially!

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:18pm

I've been looking at job applications and resumes for 30 years and can tell you there have always been college-educated folks who are dumb as rocks. Now with Spell-check it just manifests differently-

[tazber]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:19pm

I have spelll chek and Eye stil blaim my teechers.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:21pm

From the article:

"Lombardi suggests replacing this system with an apprenticeship program. Rather than requiring teaching degrees (which don't seem to improve value-added all that much), new recruits would have a couple of years of in-school training. There would then come a day of reckoning, when teachers-to-be would face a serious evaluation before securing union membership and a job for life."

Do you think this would work?

[StockardFan]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:24pm

It might. Are you talking paid apprenticeships I assume?

Teachers do have to student teach for a semester and then get evaluated by one of their college professors.

Where I live now there are simply no job openings.......

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:26pm

actually, bb, i think that a system like this has a lot of promise. but, it also has the potential for widespread abuse and to become a job machine for bureaucrats. the key would be some way of setting up an independent review board whose decisons would have to be publicly available so that there was transparency.

but imho, it's worth trying just about anything at this point before we write off another generation of kids to the dumbasses who currently own tenure and ought to be shot.

Updated On: 7/11/08 at 12:26 PM

[adamgreer]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:40pm

I work in a charter school where we're (thankfully) not governed by any union, and we use a system similar to the one described in the article. We can earn tenure after the third year, but to do so requires an extensive review by a body of five people (the principal, president of the school board, guidance counselor, another tenured teacher, and an "educational consultant"). They review past evaluations, test scores, and other documents before deciding whether to award you tenure. However, if you make it to the tenure review, your chances of receiving tenure are VERY good. Our school tends to weed out ineffective teachers much sooner than that. The bad ones usually don't make it into a second year- they get let go at the end of their first school year.

It's a system that works very well for us, but I could see why a school dealing with union teachers would be unable to implement it.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 12:53pm

Very interesting article.

I am a public school teacher and am fortunate to be in a pretty positive school with a wonderful principal who won't put up with a lot of "bad teacher" behavior. However, I have seen things that surprised and shocked me come from fellow teachers (and other principals!)

A few years ago there was an uproar because our district was chosen by the state to have the staff take the same standardized tests they give to our students. Assurance was made that this wouldn't affect our employment, but still they complained. The test you had to take was the one based on the level you were teaching. So, if you were in elementary, you took the 5th grade test, middle school, the 8th grade test, and high school the 11th grade test. Now, I could understand the concern as say, a music or home ec teacher in the high school who probably hasn't really looked at a science book in 10 years, but these were elementary teachers complaining. I looked at them and wanted to say, "If you can't pass a 5th grade test in math and English then maybe you shouldn't be teaching."

I also have to say that many of our local colleges and their teacher education programs have drastically increased the amount of "in classroom" time their students have before going out student teaching. Education students are required to do observations and spend time in classrooms starting in their freshman year, as opposed to the 'olden days" when you never saw a classroom until your semester of student teaching.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 1:06pm

I'm sick of hearing how desperate Chicago public schools are for teachers (especially bilingual and Math teachers) when they REFUSE to even speak to my boyfriend unless he already has a valid work visa (he's from Spain, for all you newbies). They refuse to sponsor visas for qualified candidates. And should he have a visa, he has to be available on one of two possible days out of the entire year (during the school year, of course) to take the eligibility exams. Sounds like they're putting their funding to excellent use. They would rather pay for countless unqualified and uncertified teachers who teach children English and Grammar using slang and urban vernacular (yes, I've heard them doing this myself) than pay for one work visa.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 1:31pm

"Teachers do have to student teach for a semester and then get evaluated by one of their college professors. "

That's what I'll be doing in January. However, we have to be in the classroom 90 hours for two other classes before the student teaching. And these aren't just 90 hours of sitting and watching the teacher teach; the practicum student teaches several lessons and deals with behavior problems. Plus, there is an additional 50 hours you must be in the classroom which are, more-or-less, observation. It's a lot of hard work, and if you are not truly dedicated, it's not worth going through the trouble. I feel like I've been in college forever and while I feel some of the classes were not worthwhile (as well as some of the professors), I feel very ready to deal with whatever may come my way. Future teacher's are put through a tremendous amount of work and pressure to make sure we are ready for teaching and truly want to teach. Throughout my college years, I've known several students who have dropped out because they couldn't handle the work and hours. I think having all of this helps weed out the 'possible' bad teachers.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 1:39pm

I agree...there is much more "pre teaching" contact time than there used to be. I'll never forget teaching daycamp with a woman who was heading into her senior year of college and was doing camp to see how she got along with children because "I"m either going to open a day care or a bar".

[KelRel]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 2:38pm

SweetQ, not to burst your bubble, but coming off of teaching my first year after graduating from a teacher ed program you aren't prepared at all! You might know the standards to teach to and methods and content knowledge, but you are in for a whole new education on how to be a teacher as soon as you set foot in your future classroom. You will spend your whole first year trying to keep your head above water because so much is thrown at you when it is "just you". There is no more supervising instructor to turn to when you get stuck, no more adviser to offer pointers on every lesson plan that you do. Yes there is administration and fellow teachers to offer help, but you are solely responsible for what happens in that classroom.

Just remember to take a deep breath, relax and remember that you are a trained educator, but that doesn't mean that you know it all and can do it all alone.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 2:46pm

I realize I may get killed for this comment.
Kel, no offense but I'm kind of offended by your comment. Nobody can tell I'm not prepared at all. Two of my friends graduated last year and have taught their first year. While it wasn't the easiest thing ever, they knew what to expect and were fully aware of how to handle situations and did so very well. They are in separate schools and offered another years contract.

I am fully are that things are not going to be like I want it and I have to take each day (each hour) as a learning experience for both me and the kids. However, while I feel some anxiety and uncertainty, I do feel prepared.

Updated On: 7/11/08 at 02:46 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 2:51pm

catfight! catfight!

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 2:53pm

Kel...I agree with you too! Having your own classroom is a completely different experience than student teaching. Our district does a fairly good job of setting up a mentoring program for new teachers. Yes, a lot of it is "all you" but it is nice to have someone to turn to.

My comments were simply that there is much more "classroom time" for education students now than ever, which helps to weed out some of the bad teachers.

But yes, that first year of teaching is it own unique animal. And so is each year after that. If you can't adapt and alter your methods and be open to trying new things, you're doomed to be unhappy and unsuccessful.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 7/11/08 at 2:54pm

I also agree with Kel 100%. Come back and talk to us after that first year, Q.