Why are the performing arts (specifically musical theatre) not "Cool"??

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:08pm

Well, need everyones help on a project and to get some opinions thrown around. I am currently reading two books on "Cool" and what it is, it's origins, etc... it's a really hard word to grasp when looking deeper into it, but I'm going to try to give you the general thesis of these authors (I think it's interesting). Based on this knowledge of Cool, look at Musical Theatre (males) in this light, or through this lens of Cool and describe to me what makes it unCool. It's obvious that it isn't the Cool thing for a guy to be in musical theatre, but why? I seem to agree with the thesis these authors try to make... and I want opinions. You can give me opinions on anything you want to say, but try and look at Cool through what the authors are saying and discover what you think makes somehting Cool or unCool or hip or square. Why exactly does a male in the performing arts (and fine arts too), musical theatre specifically, fall victim to being unCool? Do you even agree with what these authors are saying... etc. Just whatever, I want different opinions about anyhting you want to say here, the more the better.

I just thought this would be really interesting, especially because all the others are looking at somehting that is "Cool", example someone is explaing the movie Van Wylder and why he is so looked up to and Cool in that movie, others are doing some types of music and bands and subcultures... etc. I decided to look at it the other way, because it'd be interesting, plus I like musical theatre and felt this board has tons of inciteful people who I think could make good opinions and contributions to help me write this essay. ANYWAY! This is what "Cool" is... well, at least what it is for now when you think about your responses.

http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/11/12/reviews/001112.12hickeyt.html (this is the first chapter of the book, it's longer than my post and goes in a bit more detail and if you don't wanna read my description of th authors ideas, go here. If you think my post is long though, this is longer. It's interesting though, so I recommend it.)

This that I'm going to explain is what the authors' takes on the word Cool are. They don't give any clear cut quick definitions... so I'm sorry, I don't have any for you either.

Cool is a more indepth meaning than something neat or good. Take a broader approach at looking at this word, and the phenomena that it has turned into. It flows through everything from views, beliefs, personalities, behaviors, clothes, movies, music, and more. As for now though, think of it as an attitude.

When talking about objects, for example, clothes, drinks, movies, etc... it isn't the actually objects that are just Cool, instead it is really the attitude of others towards these things. So what makes our attitude of things change, what makes things Cool? It seems obvious that you can see what is or isn't Cool, but why? What makes certain activites, objects and even people Cool or not?

Cool is in everything and the attitude and behavior of someone (male mainly) is I want everyone to look at now. When you think of someone who most think is Cool... take a look at the characteristics of this person and what is Cool. Being laid back, and nonchalant, almost emotionless, is a major aspect of the behavior (keeping it Cool.) If you are scared, you act like it doesn't phase you. You act as if nothing phases you... from happiness - frustration - anger to sadness, Cool is this non-chalant, sometimes "ironic detachment". You detach yourself from the feelings you have and act in opposite way (examples above). You never want to express how you truly feel or let anyone know. You put on a Cool facade and this runs through everything. Another aspect of this attitude is the macho, tough guy personality, and a good example could be gangster rap and that hip hop culture. They have this kill or killed attitude, they are the toughest and best around; also, hiding the emotions in all ways. You are rebellious, and competitive, yet you don't act it...

Example to relate to, or at least, I think so, you want someone, but you play it Cool... you act like you don't want them and in return try to get them.

Try to look at this, as well as peoples attitudes towards objects and activites and what makes those things "Cool" and explain males in musical theatre.

What makes it unCool and "the thing to do". It seems noone cares about that stuff when they are younger, yet at some point this feeling of being Cool affects you and you can no longer sing, dance, act, etc... why? What is it about musical theatre and even performing arts in general that makes people feel this way?

Also you can even look at the fact that it also is a part of the times... whether this Cool phenomena was around a long time ago or not, you can still see that when it was shakespeares time, and in older european times, it wasn't unCool. It was much more popular, yet now, times are different obviously... so it's not popular for males to do these things anymore.

So I just want a discussion on this, express opinions, say whatever you want... the more the better, and whatever you wanna say, feel free.

So I leave it up to everyone else now, and obviously I'll be replying back and adding my own responses to what everyone says.

ALSO, if anyone wants (I really need someone) to do this over IM as like an interview type thing, please PM me or reply about it. I need someone for that also and it'd be appreciated if I can get a 1 on 1 interview about this.

Anyway, I'm so sorry for the typing, I know it's a lot, but this is important and I need help. I think if the more you guys really get itno this topic and help me out... the better my paper will be, and if anyone wants to see it after it's done, tell me and I'll it to you or maybe post it here.

This won't work without any cooperation though, so help me out!

Thanks for reading this everyone, and for those who reply and discuss this, thanks!







Updated On: 9/22/05 at 05:08 PM

[RobbO]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:09pm

i have a request. can you make your thread titles (and posts) longer? thanks!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:11pm

clarification--fine arts: painting, sculptures, photography

performing arts: dance, opera, theatre

film is technically a fine art, but I think many of us would identify with it as a performing art.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:12pm

funny... but I'm not trying to make this long, but I need to give people a background or else it won't work. So it was necessary.

I'll reread it and fix it up, maybe cut some things out, now... but it's not that effin long. It takes maybe a minute or so to read, tops.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:12pm

****, sorry, i meant performing... damn it

[Kringas]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:20pm

Where's the part where you explain the authors' definition of "cool"?

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:22pm

Well, in response to your bloddy long post (which could easily be shortened to this: What makes something cool? Why are musical theatre guys not cool?):

"Cool" is decided entirely by the social convention of the culture with whom you associate. There is nothing innately uncool or cool about the arts, but in America in 2005 in the youth culture, musical theatre is not cool. However, if you move to New York City and are a Broadway actor, and you are at a Tony party, you are the "coolest" person there if you are into musical theatre.

See what I mean, it all depends on the culture you are involved in at the time.

It is always already changing, as well. The notion of "coolness" changes as often as money changes hands. So, the power to define what is cool and what is not is up to you. You can decide to not be cool (and own you "geek" -- as I do), or you could take an equally satisfying route and redefine your personal "coolness".

Make sense?

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:23pm

The whole center part... that is their idea of it.

It's really general and abstract, but that is the best I can do. The books don't have a clear cut definition at all. they look at it in a really broad sense and what I explained about attitude is what they said... so that is the best I can do.

If you are confused, I can try to explain it better, but I can't give you some 1 sentence definition.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:37pm

edit... read ya post wrong touchme, the top part...

thanks for ya opinions. Updated On: 9/22/05 at 05:37 PM

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:39pm

Your first post (and the one you made last night) totally confused me, but the gist of what I can understand sounds interesting. Can you link us to the authors' site/amazon so we can come to our own conclusions of what their definition of 'cool' means?

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 5:44pm

Ummm... actually, I'll give a link to the first chapter of Cool Rules, one of the books. I found this about 10 min ago searching for a summary of the idea in the book so I could get my point across better and found this. It hasa review, but that wasn't anythin amazing, so whatever.

http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/11/12/reviews/001112.12hickeyt.html

But go there and it has the first chapter... there are obviously more things that they go on about, but you can an idea from this. It's confusing at first, because the concept itself is and so is the fact that they generalize it so much. You want a clear definition, yet you don't get one and don't think you really can.



and responding to touchme, the one thing is, what do you think about what the authors think of Cool? You seem to be disagreeing I guess? You think Cool just means... what? You are saying anything can be Cool in each culture, so what do you define as Cool then? Why don't you think this mainstream general idea of Cool that across many cultures is true? And if you think about that general Cool idea... it makes it clear that musical theatre isn't Cool for males, so why is that do you think?

Anywayz, just some questions to feed some more opinions...

Any confusion, go to the link in the post above. I'll post that in the original post at the top too.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 6:29pm

IMPORTANT

The point of your project is to explain the authors' definition of 'cool' and the thesis of your project is to contemplate why, given this definition, the performing arts isn't cool, right?

-was in a PM to me... and hopefully people know this is what my goal is.

I need to interview someone (all of you in this case) to write a paper for the reasons above. And also, using the authors definition and why performing arts isn't according to it, you are then able to infer what is Cool as well. So that's my project and why I had to write the long description of Cool (if you want to read an even longer one, go to the link, it's the first chapter of one of the books, it's interesting).

So just wanted to make that clear.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 7:32pm

Without a clearcut definition of what you mean by "cool", it is literally impossible to decide whether musical theatre people are "cool" or not.

Imagine I asked if I asked you to tell me whether or not you were "basic". The first thing you'd need to know is what I mean by "basic." Without a common set of definitions, it would be impossible to know.

Now...the closest I can get to what you mean is the "attitude of coolness" that you have mentioned. As far as that attitude goes, there is no reason why musical theatre people can't be "cool" (aka put on the performance of "coolness"). But, it seems like that kind of performance is designed to make others perceive us as "cool". And, most people who are involved with musical theatre have given up that hope long ago. =)

[Kringas]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 7:39pm

Go man, go,
But not like a yo-yo schoolboy.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 7:51pm

I realize what you mean, and that is why my professor told me it'd be the hardest part... but I can't give you a clear cut definition. It's more abstract then that (read the link to the first chapter if you want to know EXACTLY what one book says).

And well, you basically are saying that according to the thesis of these authors, musical theatre people ARE unCool. And that they gave up any hopes of trying to be Cool a long time ago.

Here is my take on it...

Cool as an attitude or personality (what the book describes) - it's lack of caring and emotion, or more so, not letting those emotions out. You need to be nonchalant and easy going. You put on a facade (sometimes it is just the actual person) and are trying to play off this "Cool" attitude. i explained it more above and it's explained even more in the chapter 1.

But basically, expressing emotion isn't Cool. What is performing arts? Expressing emotion, so you are in return unCool. Being out there and crazy and not caring what people think and just being whatever you are and having fun... especially when it's not in a laid back way. You aren't Cool.

When you say to someone, "play it cool", what do you want them to act like???

Basically, think of Cool as the attitude I'm trying to explain.
That's the point I'm trying to get at since it is what I'm taking from the book to mean as Cool for this topic. Now use that and look through it and at musical theatre.

If you do, I think, that musical theatre and the performing arts would be unCool for the reasons I said above. They can't be cool to eachother as you stated in a above reply, because that would be mean the cool personality must vary and it doesn't, it doesn't just mean good or something, it means something more meaningful and specific, yet not specific enough to put it into one sentence.

So if you really hate my interpretation and summary of what the author said, go to the link and read some of the first chapter, and get your own ideas and then write opinions...
Updated On: 9/22/05 at 07:51 PM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 8:00pm

I think I'm starting to grasp what you're looking for.

what I'd call what your describing is this:

the masculine ego performance. It makes those who perform it seems like they are detached, emotionless, but easy going, nothing-gets-to-them attitude.

I'd say that is more of a product of how they were nurtured by their experiences than it is what culture they presently belong to. So, I think to generalize and say musical theatre people don't perform "coolness" is incorrect. Many people do "act cool". Some don't, of course. But, many do.

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 9:05pm

ok that's cool, as long as you try to base it off what the authors explain, that's what i wanted... regardless of agreeing or not.

So yea, I can see what you are saying, theatre people can be cool, I consider myself that laid back, relaxed guy most of the time, but I can talk a lot and be hyper and much more outgoing and show my emotions... which is less "Cool".

I think the act of performing is unCool though, or at least according to what these books say. Since when you perform, you let people see into your emotions and you let everything go and you express yourself... as well as in other performing arts things. So I think that the act of doing those things is unCool because of that.

Also, the masculine part of the attitude. They say in the books that it is many times,and in the African tribe culture it was, it is a male thing... this "Cool" attitude, however, I have to read the small section on female cool and gay cool, and will post the summary here.

Anyway, it seems being macho is another aspect of it.... being brace, courageous, strong, tough, etc. So the fact that for whatever reason these things are thought of as more feminine, I guess it goes back to the expressing emotion thing. Guys, well Cool guys are suppose to be just simple, emotionless, etc. So I guess expressing yourself through some act like singing and dancing that is associated with females, this also turns it into unCool just because it isn't masculine.

I'm not saying this is right, but it does seem to be the majority opinion sometimes, that all this is more feminine. So that could be another reason how it's unCool.

I gotta definetly read ahead female and gay cool to see how those attitudes are different than the general (or male really) Cool.

Anywayz, touchme, thanks so much for the opinions and trying to get it and being involved, that's what I really wanted and the more people who could get involved and discuss this, the better.

I also feel that this can relate a lot to the straight guys in theatre thread with the previous statement i made about masculinity so that's a topic that could come up here and might even go to that thread to pull info.

Anywayz... whatever other opinions anyone wants to express, feel free.

Thanks

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 9:15pm

Hah,

I'm far too A.D.D. to read that post, but i think I get the gist of it from the title. All I can say is that I went to a public highschool, where the Arts people were just as popluar as the sports stars. In fact the Musical Theatre people used to throw joint parties with the Football stars (we had a champion football team) that were off the hook. In our social circle we respected the jocks for what they did out there on the field, and went to games to cheer them on, and they came to all our shows and stuff.

So I don't think this "Arts are uncool" thing is that universal.

Akiva

[JayKid]

Posted: 9/22/05 at 10:18pm

Well I understand what you are saying... BUT... you do have to read it to get the point.

Because your definition of Cool isn't what these books say. Cool isn't just popular, having friends or being liked or something. It's an attitude and more... not gettin into the more, because it's enough for people to get the attitude part lol.

Anyway, the reason it's so damn long is cuz I tried describing what the author said was "Cool" and then using that looking at musical theatre to see where it fits and why it'd "unCool" under the authors thesis... and to talk about that.

But, I do agree with you in the sense you are talking about though.