the rooster crows again or what's the deal with patriotism, anyway?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 2:43pm

oh, nat, ya shoulda quit while you were ahead.






who needs patriotism?

Updated On: 6/18/06 at 02:43 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 3:23pm

Well papa,

I would agree that on its face, it is not the best quote in the world, but in reading the whole article, it seems to me she is complaining about not being able to criticize faults - the all or nothing attitude of the Bush administration of being with us or against us.

"The Chicks can't hide their disgust at the lack of support they received from other country performers. "A lot of artists cashed in on being against what we said or what we stood for because that was promoting their career, which was a horrible thing to do," says Robison.

"A lot of pandering started going on, and you'd see soldiers and the American flag in every video. It became a sickening display of ultra-patriotism."

"The entire country may disagree with me, but I don't understand the necessity for patriotism," Maines resumes, through gritted teeth. "Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don't see why people care about patriotism."

The quote may be inarticulate, but I read that as saying "why is it all or nothing, why does patriotism mean that I cannot criticize".

I agree it was not a well thought out quote, but I think I support the general sentiment when patriotism has been equated with accepted without question the actions of your government.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 4:18pm

i disagree, ywiw. i think you're reading into it what you want.

"why do you have to be a patriot? about what? about what? this land is our land? why? you can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… i don't see why people care about patriotism."

people care about patriotism because despite its many flaws america is still the best place on earth. why are there millions of illegal immigrants? did they come to be opressed? no, they came to the land of opportunity. and while many people disagree with aspects of american policy under specific administrations, patriotism is about a love for america itself. a love for the ideals that for which america still stands. does it have it's flaws? sure. i know i don't agree with everything the country does and you can multiply that a hundred fold for most of the posters around here, but patriotism is not about a president or a congress. patriotism is about the promise of america. which while struggling to varying degrees based on who you talk to still offers more hope than damn near anywhere else.

"the chicks can't hide their disgust at the lack of support they received from other country performers."

waaaaahhhh. they didn't support me. well, duh, maybe it's not just about cashing in, kiddo, maybe they didn't agree with you. she sounds like a whiny little brat who's pissed off that people didn't like what she said. well, guess what, nat? not everybody's gonna agree with you and there are consequences to what you say.

what she sees as pandering i saw as patriotic. and while it's certainly patriotic to voice your dissent, you have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with your views. the freedom to voice those views is america. the freedom to disagree with those views is america. loving that one has the ability to do both of those is patriotic. crying that people don't like what you said is pathetic. she wants to be able to say what she wants and for there to be no repurcussions no matter what she says. sorry, it doesn't work that way. trust me i know. i deal with it every single day posting on this board.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 5:37pm

Perhaps I am reading into what I want to, but I also think you are reading in her statement something from your own bias.

Where does she say that she never expected repercussions? One of the consequences of voicing your political views is that people will not like you. Fine. But death threats? Seriously papa, the band received specific death threats for voicing their opinion. How is that response patriotic?

And, don't even start with the illegal immigration issue here, because in short, many of them come here for jobs. It is true many believe this is a wonderful place to be, but I would hazard to say that view has diminished a bit in the last 5 years or so. If the economies of other countries were stronger, how many would really be coming to America today?

And, I think she does sound a bit whiny - but since I was not there and am not sure how this article was edited, I am inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt. Her critics will not (and guess what, they don't have to). Regardless, it is true that many country acts just looked at the reaction to her statement and piled on the bandwagon.

And for the record, the quote that started all this was "Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas." This was said in the run-up to the Iraq war. I am ashamed that he is our President, so I guess I can sympathize with her comment.

She had every right to say what they said, and consumers had every right to react the way they did.

No one, however, has the right to threaten someone's life for a political opinion they disagree with. And, there is a difference between patriotism, and blind patriotism. You see patriotism in the reaction to her, I see blind patriotism.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 8:00pm

let's recall the context of her original statement. the united states was on the verge of war. we had not gone into iraq. a week and a half after her statement usatoday pegged approval for the war at 75%. she took an extreme position at a crucial moment. that does not in any way shape or form justify death threats against her. i'm sure she didn't realize just how unpopular her views were at the time. however, the taking of an extreme position is going to generate extreme responses. as to whether a death threat is patriotic? no it never is and never will be. nor is it appropriate. it's a crime and those responsible should face jailtime for their act.

rather than reading anything into it as you are, i am simply taking her words. she didn't question the patriotism of those who threatened her. she questioned the viability and necessity for patriotism. if patriotism is not important why have i heard over and over again on this board how horrible it is to qustion someone's patriotism? something, i cannot recall ever having done and feel is the last resort taken by the weak-minded when they realize that their argument has no hope of succeeding.

she didn't question anyone specifically, but rather the concept of patriotism itself. her words, ywiw, not mine.

now, about that bandwagon, we just happen to have went to war a week later. think that might have had something to do with the increase in nationalistic fervor displayed? is it possible that rather than simply looking to gain a quick buck by bashing the rooster, many of those "unsupportive" country acts were simply echoing the grand tradition of country music's support for the troops? toby keith, whose "ugly american" song became a flashpoint when it came out has been to perform before the troops dozens of times in iraq and afghanistan. they were angry about reba making a comment that they "can sing with their foot in their mouth"? that comment does not attack their political views, it merely points out that in the face of their abrupt apology that even they felt that they'd made a misstep. and speaking of that since rescinded apology, who's more craven and money grubbing? the performer who stays true to their ideals even when unpopular or the one who makes an apology that they don't mean and later retract in hopes of salvaging their tour and cd sales? curious, no?

i don't see patriotism in death threats, ywiw, and i resent the implication that i do. i take great umbrage at that.

but i'm curious, on the face of it, do you agree with her insinuation that there is no reason for patriotism?

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 8:32pm

No, I do not agree with her statement on face value. And honestly, I think she should learn to choose her words a bit more carefully.

But, I think her comments have to be taken in context to what happened after her statements. And the nature of patriotism being pushed by this Administration.

I guess because I never agreed with going to war in Iraq, I have a little more empathy with what she said. I did support the war in Afghanistan. I did not, however, see Sadam Hussein as a clear and present danger justifying a pre-emptive war. I remember having fights with my father during the run up to war, on whether or not we had justification to invade Iraq, on the nature of the threat really posed, and what was the true motive behind the desire to invade. To this day, the only reason to me to go to war in Iraq was either to try and nation-build a democracy in the Middle East, or to get our hands on their oil-neither of which were set forth as the justification for war. (For the record, yes, everyone thought there were WMDs, but containment was working and inspections should have continued).

I think patriotism, true patriotism, is invaluable. And, I happen to love this country very much. But there are parts of this country that frighten, anger and repulse me. Patriotism can be manipulated and made a tool of propaganda by those in power. Which, I believe, is what happened after 9/11. People today still think that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. People still think that by taking out Saddam, we were somehow avenging those killed on 9/11.

I think what this Administration has done in the name of patriotism is disgusting. I think the false sense of patriotism claimed by those who have not been asked to sacrifice an iota is shameful.

And, as for the apology, have you read what they said? They apologized for disrespecting the office of the President, but not for the actual content of the comment:

"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect. We are currently in Europe and witnessing a huge anti-American sentiment as a result of the perceived rush to war. While war may remain a viable option, as a mother, I just want to see every possible alternative exhausted before children and American soldiers' lives are lost. I love my country. I am a proud American."

And for the record papa, I was not inferring that you thought death threats were patriotic, but instead, perhaps viewing the statement from someone who has received death threats from those claiming to be "patriotic".

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 9:07pm

so you disagree with her statement and would like her to choose her words better. me too.

i have a distinct feeling that their already floundering tour might have something to do with the animosity expressed in the statement.

i take it at face value. anyone who's gone through what she's gone through and who uses words to make a living must have some understanding of them. her first comment came in the heat of passion in the middle of a concert. everything since then has come in interviews. after having been under the kind of scrutiny that she has, she gets no pass for context. i have much more faith in her understanding of what she was saying as she is a songwriter who so proudly uses words to refute her critics and espouse her values. as such, i believe there is no way to take her statement but at face value.

at least until she retracts the statement.

i certainly understand your giving her a pass, but i'm not willing to assume that she cannot understand the concept of patriotism. that's what it comes down to. is she that dumb that she doesn't understand that patriotism is not the sole domain of shotgun toting toothless bubbas? just as it is not the sole domain of tie-dyed peace sign flashing pacifists. patriotism is love of one's country. it's just as patriotic for you to rail against the injustices you perceive as it is for me to rail against your views when i see fit.

what she has done is blame a country for the acts of a few. she's wrong.

Updated On: 6/17/06 at 09:07 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 9:52pm

Well, not just a few, but quite a few.

Her sentiment, or what I believe to be her sentiment, I can probably better understand then the words verbatim as spoken.

And, I do not believe she was a "songwriter" until this last album, and even then, it was via collaboration with those producing the album. My understanding is that this most recent album is the first one that they co-wrote all of the songs. I am not sure what, if any prior songs they have been involved with writing, but this is the first album where they have writing credits on each track.

So, she doesn't really use words to make a living. In the past, she has only sang the words of others. Kind of like Bush in that way . . . (I couldn't resist).

Have a good evening papa.

Edited for typos.
Updated On: 6/17/06 at 09:52 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 10:12pm

actually she's got sogwriting credits going back to the cd "fly." not to mention the "i believe in love" single penned with marty stuart in the wake of 9/11 or #1 hit "without you" penned by natalie and eric silver.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 10:43pm

I will take your word for the songwriting credits. I know that this is the first album where they actually co-wrote all of the tracks. They made a huge deal about how the album was produced and written.

My point was that her strength was not in the writing, but in her actual voice. She was brought into the band because of her voice.

Hmmmm . . . sounds like you might be a former Dixie Chicks fan.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 10:58pm

nope, just know how to google.

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 11:04pm

I was and still am a Dixie Chicks fan, and I agree with what Natalie said. I'll take a step further -

I'm ashamed to be an American.

I also think their album is the best to date. (But Goodbye, Earl will always be one of my favorites!)

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/17/06 at 11:08pm

Then no matter what else papa, I give you Google props.

[DG]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:08am

I've always been intrigued by the concept of patriotism - the thought that one should go 'rah, rah, rah' simply because of where they happen to have been born.

And Papa, on what do you base your opinion that this is the best country in the world? According to The Economist's World Report for 2005, the U.S. is ranked 13th on the Quality of Life Index - whose rankings take into consideration an entire host of criteria.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:33am

why based on my own strict criteria of what i like, dg.

[DG]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:38am

Interesting. Based on the criteria of what I like, this country might rank in the top ten (maybe) - but not near the top.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:40am

different strokes.

[DG]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:46am

I just don't believe that unbridled capitalism is the answer.

Mind you, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the moment the concept of money was introduced into this species consciousness was the beginning of the end. But if we have to have it, capitalism is the best solution - just NOT unbridled, which is what this country tends towards.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:48am

Hmmmm.

Can you provide your criteria?

[DG]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 12:52am

I'm not sure who you were asking, YWIW, but here's the link to that Economist article.
Quality of Life Index

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 1:30am

It was actually directed at papa.

Perhaps understanding his criteria would help me understand some of his views a wee bit better.

But thanks for the link!

[sabrelady]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 10:33am

ah yes, the old
"MAH country!- right OR wrong!"

The thing is, the U.S.A. is the only one who is allowed to be patriotic, any one else who loves their OWN county is accused of ignorance, bias, ANTI Americanism. That is the real problem.
Get over yourselves, or at least understand you can be pro Europe or Canada or China withou being ANTI anyone else!

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 11:18am

thanks sabre for that brilliantly incisive addition that ignores most of the discussion that came before. unfortunately, the question was not about the nature of patriotism but rather the need for patriotism at all.

my criteria, ywiw, goes back to the declaration of independence, "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

has the united states always lived up to those expectations? no. in fact not even when they were written. will it always? no. but, when it loses its way, it only has to look back to those guiding principles to find its way. and it will. eventually, just as it has in the past. even if it takes some time to do so.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 11:34am

I guess the base issue is what do you do when it has lost its way, which I believe it has now.

I think the Bush Administration, via this Supreme Court will, for a very long time, make sure that many of those rights we felt were self-evident, are not in fact such.

The Fourth Amendment is being gutted right and left. The First Amendment is being distorted. Church and State are being intermingled like never before. The Second Amendment is (in my opinion) being misinterpreted in order to support the Gun Lobby.

Rather than going on endlessly I will say that the current state of our country is far from the ideal referenced in the Declaration of Independence. You can love what your country has been, what it has stood for in the past, and not support what it is currently doing.

Getting back to the beginning of the thread, was the quote thoughtful and articulate, no. Would I have said it to the press in her shoes? No. But, I have not been put through what she has been through, and paid such a very high price for voicing an opinion. Again, given the context of all she has been through, especially the death threats, (not that you condone that, and have stated specifically that such actions are unpatriotic) that Nataline Maines may have some reason to doubt to value of unabashed, unchecked patriotism is not surprising.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 6/18/06 at 11:41am

not unchecked nor unabashed, ywiw, just plain old patriotism.

"you can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… i don't see why people care about patriotism."

so i guess death threats exempt one from any judgement on further statements?