what happens when we become the thing we loathe?- Page 2
what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
#25re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:33pm
as opposed to the reliability of data extracted via scones and tea?
the people we are fighting do not respect compassion, they see it as a weakness to be exploited. we do not have the luxury of time in many instances in which we must extract actionable intelligence as quickly as possible in order to, in fact, act on it. the methods currently in use are not objectiinable to me in any way shape or form nor do i see their use as an affront to our way of life.
as far as responsibility for the acts deemed objectionable, thus far they have proven to be the acts of lower officers who overstepped their bounds. i don't see these as policy but rather as the actions of men and women who, when faced with the brutality of their opposition, went too far in trying to extract data which could prevent further killings of either americans or iraqis.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#26re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:35pm
It seems to me that, if torture were indeed extracting valuable, timely information, this administration might open up and let us know what information they've gathered under such circumstances that led to something being preventable or catching so-and-so.
ZONEACE
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/10/05
#27re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:37pmi happen to like scones and tea and am very talkative when offered them.
#28re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:38pm
And I believe there is a systematic program in place that the leadership in the defense department is not taking accountability for.
And papa, I have already said that I have no problem with some of methods used.
Do you really want me to start pulling up reports regarding the reliability of the data retrieved via these methods? I am talking here of some of the more violent methods used, where prisoners will say just about anything to get them to stop.
You will get information, but whether it is useful and reliable, that is a whole different discussion. And, how many of those that are currently being detained are actual the people we are fighting? How many are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Sometimes being a leader means you don't get to play by the same rules, that you are held to a higher standard than those you claim moral authority over.
Neither of us will convince the other he or she is right.
#29re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:41pm
exactly, ywiw, so let's move on to another instance of the issue.
anyone else wanna suggest one?
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#30re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 12:52pm
How about "When supposed Christians profess so much hatred for homosexuals that they become un-Christian bigots."
#31re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:01pm
well, since the premise is when people adopt the tactics or actions of those they despise, what specific tactics are christians using that they've adopted from homosexuals?
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#32re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:05pm
I can answer that one.
Christianists, if I may borrow the term from Andrew Sullivan, are now some of the quickest to cry persecution. David Limbaugh -- the witless and untalented brother of Rush whose writing style is about as captivating as a chemistry major's English 101 essay -- even wrote an entire book claiming that Christians are some sort of persecuted underclass in the U.S. Likewise with nonsense such as the so-called "War on Christmas" or the bratty kid who recently defied her school by going off-script in her graduation speech, and then whined about censorship.
#33re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:06pm
I imagine this thread was also inspired by the comments in the Republican actor thread:
I know and am fully aware of the hypocrisy that I exhibit in attacking Republicans/Conservatives and loathing when they do so at Liberals/Democrats. It's a vicious circle in our country. I could be the better man, but I don't want to right now. I am full of deep anger at Republicans and Conservatives. I think they are absolutely wrong on so many issues and how they have handled (or NOT) so many issues. And that they have "elected" the village idiot is the topper. And, if one can step in my shoes for a moment and see that when I view both elections as stolen and hold the stances that Bush took us to war to benefit corporations and oil companies and that Katrina was an abominable inaction, you might understand the justification of my deep anger. Add the attacks on gays and it IS a wonder I'm not in jail right now.
This is why my Republican friends in real time and I don't discuss politics. It's really better right now if we discuss ANYthing but. You'll notice, papa, that you and I don't discuss politics in real time. That's a very good thing. And, I probably won't ever want to discuss them in real time with you. I prefer to keep that in the cyber arena.
I went through a nice phase of acceptance after the heat of the 2004 election subsided, but it's all heated up again--likely because of the upcoming election.
Ultimately, I have nothing against Republicans. I think it's fair and healthy to disagree on various matters and to find compromises that bring about ideal solutions. I wish that was happening at the moment.
#34re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:10pm
i imagine this thread was also inspired by the comments in the republican actor thread
actually, jrb, the thread was inspired by something completely outside of bww. in fact, it was inspired by cal's "bratty kid."
**edited to include jrb's comment.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#35re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:14pm
Ooh, I didn't realize the "bratty kid" story was getting that much play. 
For the record, my opinion on that is that it was pretty stupid of the school to shut off the mic. But it was even stupider for the kid('s parents, probably) to take the effort to try to turn this into evidence of some horrid level of persecution against Christians.
#36re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:18pm
Well, I offered that as you had made the same comments in that thread--that it was hypocritical of us to say it was ok to attack Republicans on BWW because Conservatives do the same thing to liberals on conservative sites.
But, I do see that it is a problem all around us. And that is truly sad.
#37re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:22pmi was looking at it from the screaming censorship at the drop of a hat level, cal. i mean i saw the kid and her parents on the katie-less today show and thought, well, they told her if she deviated from the script that they'd shut the mic off. that's pretty clear.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#38re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:24pm
Wow, papa. This means we probably agree.
Was the school being overly cautious? Probably. But, she defied the rules. And schools do not have to be bastions of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has made that clear (just ask any campus newspaper).
#39re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:28pmwell, in the school's defense, this is not so much to keep kids from polemicizing politically as it is to keep them from giving shout outs and or other such "inappropriate" behavior. my buddy bill is a high school principal in an urban school and uses the same tactic along with the threat that he will "blow them up" should they go off script. he also inquired about the possibility of having snipers in the spot booth to take out those who applaud at the wrong time.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#40re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:32pmMight I jack this thread to ask for a link to this story, guys?
#41re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:33pm
Yup. All the school needs is a speaker to make a Ward Churchill or Ann Coulter comment (depending on the community) to suddenly have a wave of rabid parents demanding to know why they let that speaker taint their precious child's graduation. So I have no problem with them being heavily monitored.
Kids' graduation speeches always suck, anyway. I was salutatorian, but declined mine. The actual speeches seemed like nothing but inside jokes to the speakers' little circles of friends.
As a side note, our valedictorian was selected to do the opening prayer rather than an actual speech, and he was pissed. I think he had threatened just to give his speech as a prayer, but I believe he recieved the same "We'll shut off your mic" warning.
eta: for bway
Updated On: 6/22/06 at 01:33 PM
#42re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:36pmThe mic wouldve been shut off at my graduation 25 years ago...what makes this kid or her parents think that they should have "special rights?"
"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS
#43re: what happens when we become the thing we loathe?
Posted: 6/22/06 at 1:43pm
I saw the other night that she wants to study to become a journalist.
Maybe when gets a job at a paper, she'll think of a line she wants to add into a story but knows that the editor might question. So, she can just slip it into the dummy page at the last minute after the final edit and let it be a surprise to the editor rather than run it by him/her first. That will go over really well.
Updated On: 6/22/06 at 01:43 PM
Videos