BRANDI CHAVONNE MASSEY AS ELPHABA!!!- Page 2

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 1:04pm

Look up the clip you're talking about. Massey is off-pitch on a lot of the end of the song. Which is to be understood, having not gone on for months, excitement can always interfere with your pitch, any performer can attest to that.

I love Stephanie as well, but her Elphaba was also not my favorite. If you've seen The Boy From Oz, her Liza voice sometimes came out in her Elphaba performance. And considerably so at the end of Defying Gravity. I'm excited to see her in Pirate Queen, to see if her diction was a similar character choice, or just part of her skill set.

Shoshana was fun to listen to, but she often took away from the role of Elphaba by riffing through the song. It got to the point where people were going to see a Shoshana concert instead of Wicked.

Now I'll be the first one to tell you that I saw Brooklyn four times because of the vocal performances. But the part of Brooklyn was written to be a performer. So was the part of Raven. In those parts, riffing isn't just acceptable, it's to be expected. The show was terrible, but the vocals were terrific. (Which is something that has now been reviewed critically about the tour in a similar way.)

I love a great vocal performance. I saw In My Life because Christopher Hanke has a great voice and I wanted to hear it. I love Idina because she has a great voice. But there's a point when belting (Idina) and riffing (Shoshana) becomes too much for the character that you're representing. And that's where I think Wicked has taken itself to. It's become more of a contest than anything else. Any of you know that you can go back and listen to Idina doing any of her songs from the beginning of the run of the show and be unimpressed. Yet at that time, people were going crazy over her.

This show has sort of become bigger than itself. I've seen it in person four times, once with Idina, two times with Shoshana, and once with Eden. I've seen it *cough other places cough* with Stephanie, Julia, Ana, Brandi, Maria, and Victoria. I'm so tired of reading "OMG she's my favorite she's so much better than who sucks!"

The show isn't supposed to be a vocal concert. It's not American Idol. Unfortunately the stakes have been raised really high for this part. Sadly, to a lot of fans, it's become about who has the best belt in "Wizard and I" and who sings the word "Fiyero" the best in "No Good Deed" and whose "Defying Gravity" ends with the most riffs.

And how do you fix that?
Updated On: 8/7/06 at 01:04 PM

[achancetofly]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 1:12pm

MenzelManiac, I love you.

This is a wonderful, wonderful post.

[wyou17]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 1:35pm

Have to say that I love Maniac, too.

Totally agree with the point you made about going back and listening to how the songs were performed originally. It has gotten to the point now where some fans are disappointed to hear the songs performed the way they were written. Never mind that a woman like Ana Gasteyer was able to act the part, and make lines work that previous actresses were unable to deliver convincingly. She didn't create new riffs or iprovise octave jumps. No, she just sang the songs. As written. She sang them well. And she sang them as Elphaba.

And I'm not anti-riffing, either. Wanna sing "Defying Gravity" in concert? Riff away. It's your show. But at the Gershwin, it isn't. Maybe remember you aren't painted green and standing on a cherry picker for no reason.

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 1:48pm

That's a really good point Wyou.

There is something to be said for a role that must be "improved" by each new actress to be considered successful. More so than any other role I can think of in musical theater. The part is literally judged by what new these women can bring to three songs and many completely disregard anything that comes before, in between, or after in their assessment.

[wyou17]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 1:59pm

EXACTLY what I have said to others elsewhere on the subject, Maniac

[PaintWordPictures]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 2:10pm

I definitely agree with the comments about Block sounding like Liza as Elphaba sometimes. That really disturbed me...

[Unknown User]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 2:16pm

I'd rather hear these songs riffed through than hear Menzel gasp through every note or Eden Espinosa scream everything possible.

In my opinion, it makes the show more interesting.

Actresses take the part and make it their own. You don't have to agree with it, but I wouldn't be a fan of Wicked if every person playing Elphaba sang the OBCR. Now THAT's a concert.
Updated On: 8/7/06 at 02:16 PM

[wyou17]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 2:32pm

It isn't a matter of whether or not you prefer riffing through the score to someone you personally find vocally inferior in the role. It's whether or not some actresses are even PLAYING the role anymore. Riffing is a technique that can be used to great effect in adding excitment, surprise, and originality to a role. But excessive riffing detracts from what you're ACTUALLY doing- playing a character.

If we were talking about a non-musical comedy, we would not expect actresses to come up with new lines when they took over a role. "Shoshana was my favorite Corie in Barefoot! I loved how she changed all of the jokes. It was much funnier." The part is written. Play it. Bring in your own characterization, but rewritting the show isn't necessary. I'm just saying that if it takes an actress riffing through the score to excite you, and if listening to the show as it is written is not satisfying, maybe you AREN'T a Wicked fan. You're a fan of the singer. And that is a disservice to the story, if it isn't Elphaba you're interested in, but what vocal pyrotechnics are going to end the first act.

[HatBoy]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 3:04pm

Personally, I don't think any actress has gotten to the point where they've been "riffing" as opposed to playing the part. If you've seen Shoshana live or otherwise, she still acted the role correctly. Even during "Defying Gravity" as she flew, she still maintained the correct emotions as well as when she was acting in "No Good Deed," it was still completely sincere to what the character was feeling. I found the way she portrayed Elphaba (this goes for many other actresses who played the role) was very convincing, as oppose to other actresses who overacted the role (Steph Block). Whether you enjoyed the way she portrayed Elphaba or not is a matter of personal opinion, but I disagree that it's gotten to the extent that the character's genuiness has been lost.

[wyou17]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 3:18pm

It has been previously discussed that Stephen Oremus strongly disliked the way she performed the score with riffing, and that she was told to tone it down, especially on nights when Oremus was in attendance.
There is no doubt that early in her run Shoshana sang the score and acted the part. But I am certainly not alone, judging from previous posts on this board, that by the end of the run the emphasis was on singing, and not a character.
I've heard Shoshana in concert. She has talent, and vocal ability, and can be funny. But watching Shoshana Bean in concert was not all that different from watching her in Wicked, which is, I think, a problem. And seeing as how her wildly known comments about wanting to move on from theater to recording artist, I can't see how anyone would disagree that acting was not on her mind by the end of that run.

[Maefae]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 3:22pm

wyou17, you make a really, really great point. I really loved what you said about Ana Gasteyer, especially - she really had a realistic, meaningful take on the role of Elphaba. She even said herself once, 'isn't my job just to tell the story?' which is SO true. She is can also impress vocally, and doesn't NEED riffs to do so. Her voice is beautiful, and does the music great justice. She also said herself that besides the fact that she can't riff very well (haha), that she feels it takes away from the music. She is by far my favorite Elphaba.

Ironically enough, I'm also a big fan of Eden. But here's to hoping the rumors about Ana doing the role on broadway are true...

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 3:25pm

It's a matter of selling out the character for your own vocal satisfaction. Your face isn't green so that you can remind yourself how great you are, or to show people how much better an Elphaba you are than the others.

It's not a contest. Go out, play the part, end the show.

Julia Murney and Ana Gasteyer are prime examples of people who act this show in an amazingly new and refreshing way. They take the character, as it is written, and perform the music, as it is written. And the Elphaba you get is completely different in terms of self-discovery and journey than any of the actresses who have placed the brunt of their Elphabas in an overdone vocal blow-out.

As I've said, when you take the Original Broadway Cast Recording and listen to it now, compared to what's currently being done on Broadway, it's clear that the focus has been place more on the vocals than the acting. And it's unfortunate that people like Julia and Ana tend to get overlooked in favor of other women who can sing in a way that is more impressive to the masses.

It's disappointing for a fan of the show to compare where it was to where it is. That's placing no blame on any specific actress, and again, not stating that any woman who has played this part is better than any other. That, I agree, is a personal preference.
Updated On: 8/7/06 at 03:25 PM

[NYC4Life]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 4:11pm

Maniac i saw her play the role, not the clip you are talking about.

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 4:20pm

I think it's gotten past the point where we're talking about that specific performance anymore.

I think we're now discussing an issue whereby the way the part has morphed itself, via performance, into something very different than what it was, and how that is affecting the show.

[wyou17]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 4:29pm

Yes, at this point it isn't so much about specific performances so much as what has become the accepted norm for playing this role, and the fan expectation of each new actress having to do vocal tricks to top her predecessor.

I think people like Maniac get so passionate about this because they love ELPHABA, regardless of who plays her. And remember that for every fan waiting to see how Eden will sing "Fiyero," there are hundreds of people seeing the show for the first time who want to see Elphaba's journey, not Eden in Concert.

Which isn't to say that the music doesn't support this kind of interpretation IN APPROPRIATE SETTINGS. On tour, Julia Murney sings I'm Not That Girl. As written. And she acts it. It's Elphaba singing to us. On her solo CD, she sings the song her way. You hear Julia come through. Her choices, her vocal improvising. And that's great.

On her own time. Not at the Gershwin.

[Ready 2 Defy Gravity]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 4:36pm

On the rosie cruise, did she actually go up in the air?

[alliez92092]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:25pm

"And it's unfortunate that people like Julia and Ana tend to get overlooked in favor of other women who can sing in a way that is more impressive to the masses."

I totally agree. The only part I disagree is that the other women sing in a more impressive way. Have you ever heard Julia riff? She's pretty good, not a Shoshana riffer but still good. But yes, Julia and Ana sang the role well and acted it perfectly. They got across the real Elphaba.

[atlsuperstar]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:32pm

This is crazy! Too much riffing? It's Wicked people, and if Stephen didn't want those girls to sing they would not have given Elphaba such amazing songs to show her voice. In no way did Brandi riff nearly as much as she could. She stayed true to the character and just made the role her's. Who want's to sound like boring Idina anyway, the only reason she got the role was because of her name. She is not the best singer, and Ana(My God) yes she is a GREAT actress, but NO ONE wants to come to Wicked, and see a girl just act.

She needs to be able to blow us away with her voice, same applies with something like Aida. You want to see a good actress, but you don't want to hear "Easy As Life" sounding a mess. Oh just so you know Brandi is not off at the end of the song on the Rosie Crusie, she did that on purpose with a break in her voice. If there is any show that people should be able to play with this would be one of them.

I would also like to make a note that Brandi has not went on in a while and yes people have to grow into roles. She did the same when she played Lucy in "jekyll and hyde", and the radio in "caroline". Brandi was absolutely amazing this weekend.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:34pm

I personally don't understand how someone can say that riffing "makes the show more interesting". If by that you mean the show as in "Oh I can't wait to hear her vocals while she throws acting out the window", then by all means that would make a great concert. What we are talking about though is a broadway show that should be held to similar expectations of playing a role.

Riffing can get just as annoying if overused as a 'gasp' or 'scream' might be.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:36pm

HER NAME? Honey, you don't seem to understand that before Wicked, half this board gave a **** less than who the hell Idina whatever her name was anyway. And boring? Hmm how many times have you gone to see Shoshana?

[Maefae]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:42pm

I don't think riffing is the only way you can 'blow someone away.' Every time I saw Ana she blew me away with the sheer power and beauty of her voice - not jazzed up with riffs or anything. It was the pureness of her voice that drew me in.

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:43pm

Exactly Company.

No one is saying these aren't incredibly talented actresses. But there comes a point when you're more known as a singer or vocalist than an actress.

Shoshana was very vocal about wanting to be a singer. I have no doubt that Wicked was a springboard for that. Her focus was on the singing in that show. And the riffs are proof of that.

And there's a very big difference between someone riffing through a song and not singing it as it is written, and someone singing it like "a wreck". That's loaded vocabulary you're using and it's not helping your argument. Neither is calling Idina "boring". The woman won a Tony for her performance. No one said she's the best woman that's ever done the role, but people certainly respected her for playing the part the way she did.

The way it was written.

[atlsuperstar]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 5:58pm

Yes HONEY, her name! And I am not saying that riffing is the reason to go and see the show. I am simply saying that Brandi did not riff a lot and I think that it was suitable. I would rather see a good actress with an amazing voice for that role that's all. I am not saying that she has to riff but she has to SANG! Idina was the choice mainly cause of who she was compared to who she was up against. At least people knew her from Rent "hello HONEY she was nominated" and going into Aida. No one knew who the hell Eden or Shoshona was at that time. So yes I do think it was her name. And maybe the word boring was a little much, she did give you drama on that stage and I loved it. But her vocals were very NERVOUS!

[MenzelManiac]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 6:07pm

But don't you see that "nervous" is exactly what that character is?

Elphaba isn't sassy (Shoshana). She might be a little angry (Eden) and is definitely misunderstood and reserved (Idina, Julia, Ana).

The character has to dictate the actress' choice in playing the role. You can't give us Jazz Hands Elphaba. She's a certain type of girl. Within that reasoning comes a lot of different shades of gray. Once you've got your head wrapped around who Elphaba is, you show her to people. You take them on your journey with you. Idina did that. Without being distracting in the way that other women playing this part have been.

Elphaba isn't three songs. Elphaba would not riff. She's a person, a living breathing person with her own set of intricacies and quirks and misgivings and hesitations. And I really believe that finding that girl and connecting with her is the only way to play this part the way it was written.

[bobbystrong]

Posted: 8/7/06 at 6:10pm

What is funny about what MenzelManiac's comments is that Idina is a HUGE riffer as well. When you say she "sang it as written" - you mean sang it with Idina's original riffs. You know Idina's rendition is full of riffs and taking certain notes and phrases up and down that weren't written in the score. You are just so used to hearing her original version that you assume that is how it was written...but if you look at the score - you realize Idina riffed the entire song.

Sometimes I think the people who are super "anti-riffing" are just angry because they can't do it themselves. It is called musicality and phrasing - it takes unique talent. Yes, certainly sometimes it goes overboard - and sometimes it is absolutely not appropriate for character/scene. But if we are talking about "Defying Gravity"...it makes complete sense for the actor to take vocal chances. The character is finally 'free' for the first time in her life, is exploding with power and emotion...

no - it is not appropriate to riff through "I'm Not That Girl". But "Defying Gravity" - the first time Elphaba flies?? It is entirely appropriate, and exciting for the actor to let it rip vocally. I mean - the song was basically written for individual interpretation and riffing... and even ends with the ensemble breaking for the "Ahhh" RIFF.