Controversy over Ragtime...Opinions? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 6/26/08 at 6:29pm
However, because it has been brought up...I DO have to say that there are certain shows High Schools should never do. I believe RAGTIME is one of them.
We ALL could compose our own list of monumental shows, and RAGTIME would be a front-runner on mine. It's just VERY hard for high schoolers to understand the complexities of the material of the show.
Anymore it's hard to even try to MAKE them understand the material when they're too busy texting on their phone in theatre class, "OMG rehersl is effin lame lol Wut r u doin?"
Yeah, I want Back to Before in the hands of that girl....
We ALL could compose our own list of monumental shows, and RAGTIME would be a front-runner on mine. It's just VERY hard for high schoolers to understand the complexities of the material of the show.
Anymore it's hard to even try to MAKE them understand the material when they're too busy texting on their phone in theatre class, "OMG rehersl is effin lame lol Wut r u doin?"
Yeah, I want Back to Before in the hands of that girl....
I adore the black band holding on the Phantom's mask. ~ Jenna2
#28
Posted: 6/26/08 at 6:48pm
What's complex about Ragtime. It's American history.
High schools should be teaching about Ellis Island and the early 20th century as part of their curriculi.
On a side note, does this that Wilmette will be canceling next years production of Hair?
High schools should be teaching about Ellis Island and the early 20th century as part of their curriculi.
On a side note, does this that Wilmette will be canceling next years production of Hair?
....but the world goes 'round
#29
Posted: 6/26/08 at 6:56pm
Thats a Big error done by the board they should of read the script before okaying it but since they aproved it the show should go on because they gave permission in the first place It's stupid that they have to cancel it 2 weeks before opening.
#30
Posted: 6/26/08 at 7:02pm
I'm not saying the era was complex (tho OF COURSE it was)
I'm saying the SHOW itself is complex. The Characters are incredibly complex. There's not much dialogue in this show, thus, we have to learn A LOT about the characters through their songs. And let's face it, Ragtime has one of THE best scores in the past 15 years.
Personally, I just feel VERY cautious giving high schoolers this very special and sensitive material.
I'm saying the SHOW itself is complex. The Characters are incredibly complex. There's not much dialogue in this show, thus, we have to learn A LOT about the characters through their songs. And let's face it, Ragtime has one of THE best scores in the past 15 years.
Personally, I just feel VERY cautious giving high schoolers this very special and sensitive material.
I adore the black band holding on the Phantom's mask. ~ Jenna2
#31
Posted: 6/26/08 at 9:39pm
From what I've read, the word "miscegenation" is considered pretty similar to the n-word in terms of offensiveness.
No, not really. The concept is offensive, but using the word is in no way comparable to the n-word.
No, not really. The concept is offensive, but using the word is in no way comparable to the n-word.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
#32
Posted: 6/26/08 at 9:43pm
Okay that sounded dumb. But what I meant more was that they really have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to theater. The have gone on record in the past as saying they would rather us do the Big shows ala the Annie's, because they are more well known. In the district where I went, the board was all about how much money could be made, not what the students could get out of it.
i could go on for longer, but i don't have the energy to type.
i could go on for longer, but i don't have the energy to type.
for fierce, fabulous and fun times visit eric mathew's world.
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#33
Posted: 6/26/08 at 10:01pm
> the concept is offensive ... but the word is in no way comprabel to the n-word.
ok, two things here:
(1) miscegenation refers to mixing of the races -- what's offensive is the various anti-miscegenation laws that were struck down by the supreme court in 1967. "miscegenation" isnt offensive ... restricting miscegenation is.
(2) i agree the word anti-miscegenation is not offenseive, but just to be clear: a word -- any word, even the n-word -- is not as offensive as a law that actually imposes *criminal* penalties on marrying someone of a different race.
mostly just want to be sure everyone understands miscegenation is cool, and anti-miscegenation is what's offensive.
ok, two things here:
(1) miscegenation refers to mixing of the races -- what's offensive is the various anti-miscegenation laws that were struck down by the supreme court in 1967. "miscegenation" isnt offensive ... restricting miscegenation is.
(2) i agree the word anti-miscegenation is not offenseive, but just to be clear: a word -- any word, even the n-word -- is not as offensive as a law that actually imposes *criminal* penalties on marrying someone of a different race.
mostly just want to be sure everyone understands miscegenation is cool, and anti-miscegenation is what's offensive.
"You, sir, are a moron." (PlayItAgain)
#34
Posted: 6/27/08 at 10:26am
I totally believe that a show like Ragtime belongs in HS's. What a fabulous teaching tool.
As a H.S. director/choreographer, this is exactly the type of show I WANT them do. (Sadly, I have very few african american students in the building and even fewer in my program so it's a show that I won't be able to mount.) Mind you, you would need the right group of students to pull it off (the right balance of talent, maturity and dedication) and that only comes around every 5 to 10 years.
Right after Les Mis became available for HS's, we had the right group to do it. It was a TREMENDOUS amount of work for all involved, but it was amazing experience and one of our best productions EVER. You need to know both your audience AND your talent pool to make all choices in productions.
But as far as them pulling a production: Quite the shame. It's a part of our history that we should learn from.
As a H.S. director/choreographer, this is exactly the type of show I WANT them do. (Sadly, I have very few african american students in the building and even fewer in my program so it's a show that I won't be able to mount.) Mind you, you would need the right group of students to pull it off (the right balance of talent, maturity and dedication) and that only comes around every 5 to 10 years.
Right after Les Mis became available for HS's, we had the right group to do it. It was a TREMENDOUS amount of work for all involved, but it was amazing experience and one of our best productions EVER. You need to know both your audience AND your talent pool to make all choices in productions.
But as far as them pulling a production: Quite the shame. It's a part of our history that we should learn from.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
#35
Posted: 6/27/08 at 10:37am
"No. Censorship is the government forbidding specific political acts or speech."
Nope. Censorship is "the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts."
Nope. Censorship is "the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts."
#36
Posted: 6/27/08 at 11:59am
orangeskittles: You missed a huge online debate about it, then. "Miscegenation" was the theme for a Harry Potter fanfiction contest or something, and people (especially black individuals) went ballistic, saying that the word had a very offensive connotation, even along the lines of the n-word, and should never be used. Someone actually wrote a huge essay about it.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree, but that is how some people feel.
Anyway, you think you guys had it bad? I went to a Catholic school. We had to censor You Can't Take it With You, for heaven's sake. The drunk character was made to be "always really tired."
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree, but that is how some people feel.
Anyway, you think you guys had it bad? I went to a Catholic school. We had to censor You Can't Take it With You, for heaven's sake. The drunk character was made to be "always really tired."
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 6/27/08 at 11:59 AM
#37
Posted: 6/27/08 at 12:10pm
I find it interesting that so many white people have issues with race now. I mean from what I've read that part of IL isn't exactly known for diversity. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree, but honestly if the black people (most of whom are either ont he creative team or performers) don't have an issue with it, why the HELL should anyone else? Frankly all you need to do is turn on the radio and you'll hear the same word over and over and over again. Most youh today know these songs.
It's so foolish to say "Someone might walk by and hear it". I mean does the same person call Hollywood when flipping through the TV?! Does the same person call the radio station when flipping through the radio? Most likely not. In 2008 it seems like theatre is more vulnerable than most mediums. And frankly I could count on one hand the number of times that word is used in Ragtime (and I'd actually have fingers left over). Someone's ALWAYS offended by something. If I were in charge I'd just say "You heard a period play" and forget about the person. Mind you, that's assuming someone would ACTUALLY call. This really pisses me off. I think I'm going to write him. Feel free to join me:
tgrisamore@wilpark.org
It's so foolish to say "Someone might walk by and hear it". I mean does the same person call Hollywood when flipping through the TV?! Does the same person call the radio station when flipping through the radio? Most likely not. In 2008 it seems like theatre is more vulnerable than most mediums. And frankly I could count on one hand the number of times that word is used in Ragtime (and I'd actually have fingers left over). Someone's ALWAYS offended by something. If I were in charge I'd just say "You heard a period play" and forget about the person. Mind you, that's assuming someone would ACTUALLY call. This really pisses me off. I think I'm going to write him. Feel free to join me:
tgrisamore@wilpark.org
#38
Posted: 6/27/08 at 12:35pm
I wasn't aware Harry Potter fanwank was considered legal precedent. As whatever2 explained, there is nothing offensive about the word, so to compare it to use of the n-word is ridiculous- for them to start and for you to repeat here. Perhaps the Harry Potter fanfic writers should step into reality from time to time before declaring a word they don't understand is offensive.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 6/27/08 at 12:35 PM
#39
Posted: 6/27/08 at 12:59pm
I have created a petition. If we get 1000 signatures, it will be performed.
Please sign.
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/gilson/petition.html
Please sign.
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/gilson/petition.html
#40
Posted: 6/27/08 at 2:46pm
If I sign it, will you go away?
I adore the black band holding on the Phantom's mask. ~ Jenna2
#41
Posted: 6/27/08 at 3:07pm
This is very interesting...just received this article from Playbill. Lynn Ahrens, the lyricist of Ragtime, has commented on the situation. :)
http://www.playbill.com/news/article/119064.html
http://www.playbill.com/news/article/119064.html
Updated On: 6/27/08 at 03:07 PM
#42
Posted: 6/27/08 at 4:22pm
First of all, JoeKv99 this does qualify as censorship. An act has been made to suppress information or media that was deemed objectionable. Censorship is not specifically limited to the government forbidding specific political acts or speech, and even if it was, a parks department is part of the local government and would still fit into your slightly more narrow definition.
Secondly, and I know I do not speak for all here, I do not scream bloody-murder over anti-gay posters and protesters. Being a gay male such things are offensive to me, however they are exercising their first amendment right, which is just as important as the gay rights movement. Even though I find such posters and language to be offensive on a personal level, I find acts of censorship to be offensive on a much more broad and far more important level.
In this case a piece of art, and in my opinion a great piece of art at that, has been censored and I think it is disgusting.
Secondly, and I know I do not speak for all here, I do not scream bloody-murder over anti-gay posters and protesters. Being a gay male such things are offensive to me, however they are exercising their first amendment right, which is just as important as the gay rights movement. Even though I find such posters and language to be offensive on a personal level, I find acts of censorship to be offensive on a much more broad and far more important level.
In this case a piece of art, and in my opinion a great piece of art at that, has been censored and I think it is disgusting.
#43
Posted: 6/27/08 at 4:23pm
"I find this sad and also hilarious," Ragtime lyricist Lynn Ahrens told Playbill.com June 27. "It seems to sum up the blind ignorance of people who sit busily cherry-picking bad words, while not even bothering to read the script they are producing to understand its ideas or the context in which these words are spoken.
Lynn Ahrens is absolutely right. How can someone acquire the rights to a show in January, allow the cast to rehearse for two months and then wait until a few weeks before opening to examine the content of the show??
Lynn Ahrens is absolutely right. How can someone acquire the rights to a show in January, allow the cast to rehearse for two months and then wait until a few weeks before opening to examine the content of the show??
"You drank a charm to kill John Proctor's wife! You drank a charm to kill Goody Proctor!" - Betty Parris to Abigail Williams in Arthur Miller's The Crucible
#44
Posted: 6/27/08 at 5:34pm
What better way to wipe out racism than to perform RAGTIME in every bandshell every summer. Explain to the kids why that n word is so bad.
#45
Posted: 6/27/08 at 5:59pm
On the bright side, think of all the money this has cost the venue to wait until the last minute to cancel.
The Kennedy Center season preview came last week in the mail. Their production of Ragtime is set for April 18-May 10, 2009.
The Kennedy Center season preview came last week in the mail. Their production of Ragtime is set for April 18-May 10, 2009.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 6/27/08 at 05:59 PM
#46
Posted: 6/27/08 at 6:35pm
I don't look at it as censorship. If they edited the script and changed the worlds because they don't like the use of the N word then that would be censorship. But, a private instituation choosing not to do the show isn't censorship. A private instituion has every right to decide what show they will and won't put on.
Also, I do find it funny about how the article was talking about the discussion between the producers of the show and MTI about changing some of the words. The park wanted to change the word "n*" because they were worried that people passing by would hear the word and get offended. The park suggested that they use the words "coon" "darkie" or "boy" instead of the N word. Frankly some of thoes words are just as offensive if not more offensive then the N word. I don't think that it would have solved their problem if they changed the word to one of the other three that the park suggested. It would still make things bad.
And, to whomever it was who said that high schoolers shouldn't touch Ragtime because of the history involved in the piece and because most students in the show wouldn't care what is going on. I have to say that I take offense to that. First off, in a lot of high schools the students are there because they want to be there. They aren't forced by the show to be in the high school play. You might ge the attitude about texting about how bored they are or something like that if they were forced to do the show and they didn't want to be there. As for what is approprate for a high school arts program to do it shouldn't be fair to judge all high school aged kids the same when it comes to maurity or something like that. In my high school we were a small private school that could only afford to do one show a year. But, the teacher who was also the director not only ran his own production company on the side but is an off broadway director. He picked shows that most high schools wouldn't do. Shows that if your doing plays that they were plays one wouldn't touch unil college.
Also, I do find it funny about how the article was talking about the discussion between the producers of the show and MTI about changing some of the words. The park wanted to change the word "n*" because they were worried that people passing by would hear the word and get offended. The park suggested that they use the words "coon" "darkie" or "boy" instead of the N word. Frankly some of thoes words are just as offensive if not more offensive then the N word. I don't think that it would have solved their problem if they changed the word to one of the other three that the park suggested. It would still make things bad.
And, to whomever it was who said that high schoolers shouldn't touch Ragtime because of the history involved in the piece and because most students in the show wouldn't care what is going on. I have to say that I take offense to that. First off, in a lot of high schools the students are there because they want to be there. They aren't forced by the show to be in the high school play. You might ge the attitude about texting about how bored they are or something like that if they were forced to do the show and they didn't want to be there. As for what is approprate for a high school arts program to do it shouldn't be fair to judge all high school aged kids the same when it comes to maurity or something like that. In my high school we were a small private school that could only afford to do one show a year. But, the teacher who was also the director not only ran his own production company on the side but is an off broadway director. He picked shows that most high schools wouldn't do. Shows that if your doing plays that they were plays one wouldn't touch unil college.
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
#47
Posted: 6/27/08 at 7:53pm
It's interesting that anyone could become so rattled regarding the censorship of a musical. What repercussions would occur? What is the danger of using the "n-word" in a production of "Ragtime"? It's not intended to offend, it's intended to depict the time era and the characters with the utmost accuracy. I can't believe they are attempting to instill this sense of a(n) "artificial reality"; the word exists/existed, people still use it [unfortunately].
#48
Posted: 6/27/08 at 10:24pm
I think that there are a lot of people in this country who are ashamed of what happend back in the day in regards to how black people were treated. Instead of admiting that there were white people who used racial slurs they try to erase it all by acting as if they never were said in the first place. So, when productions like Ragtime want to be done it remindes them of how ashamed people are that situations like this did happen and they figure that if they don't do the show and if they act like they didn't happen then it will all go away. I think that forgetting that that events like this happened is worse then them actually being a part of our history.
I remember reading about a DVD box set of Looney Toons cartoons. There was some controversy because back in the day they had created cartoons that were offensive to the black community and the jewish community (which is ironic because most of the people who were working on Looney Toons were jewish.) They had Whoopie Goldberg of all people film a disclamer saying that they were going to show the cartoons on the DVD because to not show them and act like they aren't a part of our history is just as bad if not worse then them being a part of American history.
I remember reading about a DVD box set of Looney Toons cartoons. There was some controversy because back in the day they had created cartoons that were offensive to the black community and the jewish community (which is ironic because most of the people who were working on Looney Toons were jewish.) They had Whoopie Goldberg of all people film a disclamer saying that they were going to show the cartoons on the DVD because to not show them and act like they aren't a part of our history is just as bad if not worse then them being a part of American history.
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
#49
Posted: 6/28/08 at 2:36am
Why shouldn't they pretend it never happened?
Germans have no recollection of the 1940s..."Everyone was on vacation!"
Germans have no recollection of the 1940s..."Everyone was on vacation!"
I adore the black band holding on the Phantom's mask. ~ Jenna2
#50
Posted: 6/28/08 at 2:51am
Quoting Family Guy is almost as bad as SporkGoddess using Harry Potter fanfic in her argument. 
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
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