#26
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:14pm
I said "I always feel" not "you always feel" - my opinion. I take your point, but still my opinion. Ben and Buddy to MY mind are supporting roles.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:14pm
Tim Rice is pretty well-known for writing really great songs for female characters.
#28
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:18pm
Ben and Buddy to MY mind are supporting roles.
Your mind ain't right.
Your mind ain't right.
#29
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:23pm
You gotta open yo' mind a lil' bit too 
#30
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:28pm
Not really, FOLLIES is a show that has four leads, you follow four main trajectories (among others), two couples, the might begin with Sally, but that'd be as if I said the little girl from RAGTIME is the lead just because she begins the show. Anyway, I don't get the connection between having two female characters at the center of your show (like say CHICAGO does) and having less well-written male characters.
Desiree is the lead of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, but the Count, Henrik and Fredrick are some of the most complex male characters in a musical, they almost have a Shakespearean quality about them. Jerry Herman often has females as the sole leads of a show, but that doesn't mean the male characters in his shows are poorly written. In other words, I'm not sure there's any point to this idea.
Desiree is the lead of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, but the Count, Henrik and Fredrick are some of the most complex male characters in a musical, they almost have a Shakespearean quality about them. Jerry Herman often has females as the sole leads of a show, but that doesn't mean the male characters in his shows are poorly written. In other words, I'm not sure there's any point to this idea.
"Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room, that's perfect for some people of one hundred and five. But I at least gotta try, when I think of all the sights that I gotta see, all the places I gotta play, all the things that I gotta be at"
#31
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:40pm
"Ben and Buddy to MY mind are supporting roles."
"Your mind ain't right."
^^ This. What PRS said.
"Your mind ain't right."
^^ This. What PRS said.
#32
Posted: 6/20/13 at 3:05pm
No, you're just being obtuse. Ben and Buddy are NOT supporting characters.
There's an icky, homophobic element to your question that you may or may not be aware of, which I think may be irritating many of the people contradicting you.
For decades prior to the 1970s and 1980s, certain gay-baiting questions were asked of playwrights who were known to be gay or (if not out of their closets) suspected to be gay. Playwrights like Edward Albee and Tennessee Williams were dogged by these questions for most of their early careers:
* Are gay writers incapable of writing heterosexual characters and relationships?
* Are all of their heterosexual characters only queer characters masquerading as straight characters?
* Are they incapable of writing heterosexual males?
And most to the point of your initial question:
* Are all of their female characters just flamboyant gay men in drag?
These questions were usually asked by deeply homophobic critics and scholars who thought they were seeing through to some deeper truth. Thankfully, that entire line of questioning has been discredited and abandoned.
Your question--and your continued doubling down on your erroneous assumption--irritates the hell out of many of us because you seem to be saying that the only good thing about his writing is the fiery-ness of the females. And when we point out that the brilliance of his writing extends to the male characters he's written, you dismiss them (erroneously) as supporting roles.
I am not, mind you, accusing you of homophobia. I am, however, accusing you of trolling for negative responses.
With that, my work is done here.
There's an icky, homophobic element to your question that you may or may not be aware of, which I think may be irritating many of the people contradicting you.
For decades prior to the 1970s and 1980s, certain gay-baiting questions were asked of playwrights who were known to be gay or (if not out of their closets) suspected to be gay. Playwrights like Edward Albee and Tennessee Williams were dogged by these questions for most of their early careers:
* Are gay writers incapable of writing heterosexual characters and relationships?
* Are all of their heterosexual characters only queer characters masquerading as straight characters?
* Are they incapable of writing heterosexual males?
And most to the point of your initial question:
* Are all of their female characters just flamboyant gay men in drag?
These questions were usually asked by deeply homophobic critics and scholars who thought they were seeing through to some deeper truth. Thankfully, that entire line of questioning has been discredited and abandoned.
Your question--and your continued doubling down on your erroneous assumption--irritates the hell out of many of us because you seem to be saying that the only good thing about his writing is the fiery-ness of the females. And when we point out that the brilliance of his writing extends to the male characters he's written, you dismiss them (erroneously) as supporting roles.
I am not, mind you, accusing you of homophobia. I am, however, accusing you of trolling for negative responses.
With that, my work is done here.
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 03:05 PM
#33
Posted: 6/20/13 at 3:32pm
No I don't agree with you there at all.
#34
Posted: 6/20/13 at 4:53pm
What does the status of characters as lead or featured have to do with this question? Musicaldude, with all due respect, I think you might be confusing the role of the librettist with that of the songwriter (not to imply that I agree with your suggestion there are a dearth of leading men in Sondheim shows; I don't agree with it at all; and also not to imply that secondary characters can't be conceived and written well by librettists (often they are more interesting than leads)). In addition, featured characters in musicals often have great songs, including featured characters in Sondheim shows, as I'm sure you would agree (at least, given your thesis, when it comes to his featured women).
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 04:53 PM
#35
Posted: 6/20/13 at 8:03pm
I think Sondheim is a terrible example because he writes more interesting songs for men than just about anyone.
But in general in American culture, men ACT while women FEEL. (Or they did from the 1950s through the 1980s.) Since we also have a convention that music represents emotions, it's not surprising that many of the best musical theater songs are written for female characters. Audiences accept a wider range of emotion from women.
But in general in American culture, men ACT while women FEEL. (Or they did from the 1950s through the 1980s.) Since we also have a convention that music represents emotions, it's not surprising that many of the best musical theater songs are written for female characters. Audiences accept a wider range of emotion from women.
#36
Posted: 6/20/13 at 10:20pm
Great Broadway songs for men, some Sondheim, some not:
If I Were a Rich Man (Fiddler)
Wonder of Wonder, Miracle of Miracles (Fiddler)
Mama, Mama(Most Happy Fella)
My Heart Is So Full of You (Most Happy Fella)
Joey, Joey, Joey (Most Happy Fella)
I Believe In You and Rosemary (How To Succeed)
My Time of Day (Guys and Dolls)
Luck Be a Lady Tonight (Guys and Dolls)
Guys and Dolls (Guys and Dolls)
The Impossible Dream (Man of La Mancha)
Make Them Hear You (Ragtime)
Epiphany (Sweeney Todd)
Nothing's Gonna Harm You (Sweeney Todd)
Johanna (Sweeney Todd)
Pretty Women (Sweeney Todd)
Soliloquy (Carousel)
Some Enchanted Evening (South Pacific)
Younger Than Springtime (South Pacific)
Almost Like Being in Love (Brigadoon)
Come To Me, Bend To Me (Brigadoon)
There But For You Go I (Brigadoon)
If Ever I Would Leave You (Camelot)
The Sadder But Wiser Girl (Music Man)
Ya Got Trouble (Music Man)
Seventy-Six Trombones (Music Man)
On the Street Where You Live (My Fair Lady)
Get Me To the Church On Time (My Fair Lady)
With a Little Bit of Luck (My Fair Lady)
I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face (My Fair Lady)
Corner Of the Sky (Pippin)
Being Alive (Company)
Sorry/Grateful (Company)
Marry Me a Little (Company)
When I First Saw You (Dreamgirls)
Finishing the Hat (Sunday in the Park)
No More (Into the Woods)
Agony (Into the Woods)
Giants In the Sky (Into the Woods)
You're Nothing Without Me (City of Angels)
Promises, Promises (Promises, Promises)
She Likes Basketball (Promises, Promises)
Half as Good as Life (Promises, Promises)
Try To Remember (Fantasiks- Off-Broadway)
Music of the Night (Phantom of the Opera)
Old Man River (Show Boat)
If This Isn't Love (Finian's Rainbow)
That Ol' Devil Moon (Finian's Rainbow)
This Can't Be Love (Boys From Syracuse)
Falling In Love With Love (Boys From Syracuse)
Willkommen (Cabaret)
Those Were the Good Old Days (Damn Yankees)
Heart (Damn Yankees)
You Are Beautiful (Flower Drum Song)
Once In Love With Amy (Where's Charley?)
What Kind of Fool Am I? (Stop the World)
On a Clear Day You Can See Forever (On a Clear Day)
Come Back To Me (On a Clear Day)
Where Is Love? (Oliver!)
You've Got to Pick a Pocket Or Two (Oliver!)
Consider Yourself (Oliver!)
Reviewing the Situation (Oliver!)
Maria (West Side Story)
Cool (West Side Story)
The Jet Song (West Side Story)
Officer Krupke (West Side Story)
I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy (Little Johnny Jones)
Guido's Song (Nine)
The Bells of St. Sebastian (Nine)
I Won't Send Roses (Mack and Mabel)
Song on the Sand (La Cage)
I Am What I Am (La Cage)
I Put a Little More Mascara On (La Cage)
With Anne On My Arm (La Cage)
Mr. Cellophane (Chicago)
All I Care About Is Love (Chicago)
Razzle Dazzle (Chicago)
Pretty Lady (Pacific Overtures)
It Takes a Woman (Hello, Dolly!)
It Only Takes a Moment (Hello, Dolly!)
Bring Him Home (Les Miz)
Stars (Les Miz)
Empty Chairs at Empty Tables (Les Miz)
Anthem (Chess)
We'll Take a Glass Together (Grand Hotel)
Love Can't Happen (Grand Hotel)
Muddy Water (Big River)
Waitin' For the Light to Shine (Big River)
One Song Glory (Rent)
This Is the Moment (Jekyll and Hyde)
I Wanna Be a Producer (The Producers)
Sweet Transvestite (Rocky Horror Show)
You're Timeless To Me (Hairspray)
That's just off the top of my head, but ...
Nope, there's no good songs for men, not then, not now.
If I Were a Rich Man (Fiddler)
Wonder of Wonder, Miracle of Miracles (Fiddler)
Mama, Mama(Most Happy Fella)
My Heart Is So Full of You (Most Happy Fella)
Joey, Joey, Joey (Most Happy Fella)
I Believe In You and Rosemary (How To Succeed)
My Time of Day (Guys and Dolls)
Luck Be a Lady Tonight (Guys and Dolls)
Guys and Dolls (Guys and Dolls)
The Impossible Dream (Man of La Mancha)
Make Them Hear You (Ragtime)
Epiphany (Sweeney Todd)
Nothing's Gonna Harm You (Sweeney Todd)
Johanna (Sweeney Todd)
Pretty Women (Sweeney Todd)
Soliloquy (Carousel)
Some Enchanted Evening (South Pacific)
Younger Than Springtime (South Pacific)
Almost Like Being in Love (Brigadoon)
Come To Me, Bend To Me (Brigadoon)
There But For You Go I (Brigadoon)
If Ever I Would Leave You (Camelot)
The Sadder But Wiser Girl (Music Man)
Ya Got Trouble (Music Man)
Seventy-Six Trombones (Music Man)
On the Street Where You Live (My Fair Lady)
Get Me To the Church On Time (My Fair Lady)
With a Little Bit of Luck (My Fair Lady)
I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face (My Fair Lady)
Corner Of the Sky (Pippin)
Being Alive (Company)
Sorry/Grateful (Company)
Marry Me a Little (Company)
When I First Saw You (Dreamgirls)
Finishing the Hat (Sunday in the Park)
No More (Into the Woods)
Agony (Into the Woods)
Giants In the Sky (Into the Woods)
You're Nothing Without Me (City of Angels)
Promises, Promises (Promises, Promises)
She Likes Basketball (Promises, Promises)
Half as Good as Life (Promises, Promises)
Try To Remember (Fantasiks- Off-Broadway)
Music of the Night (Phantom of the Opera)
Old Man River (Show Boat)
If This Isn't Love (Finian's Rainbow)
That Ol' Devil Moon (Finian's Rainbow)
This Can't Be Love (Boys From Syracuse)
Falling In Love With Love (Boys From Syracuse)
Willkommen (Cabaret)
Those Were the Good Old Days (Damn Yankees)
Heart (Damn Yankees)
You Are Beautiful (Flower Drum Song)
Once In Love With Amy (Where's Charley?)
What Kind of Fool Am I? (Stop the World)
On a Clear Day You Can See Forever (On a Clear Day)
Come Back To Me (On a Clear Day)
Where Is Love? (Oliver!)
You've Got to Pick a Pocket Or Two (Oliver!)
Consider Yourself (Oliver!)
Reviewing the Situation (Oliver!)
Maria (West Side Story)
Cool (West Side Story)
The Jet Song (West Side Story)
Officer Krupke (West Side Story)
I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy (Little Johnny Jones)
Guido's Song (Nine)
The Bells of St. Sebastian (Nine)
I Won't Send Roses (Mack and Mabel)
Song on the Sand (La Cage)
I Am What I Am (La Cage)
I Put a Little More Mascara On (La Cage)
With Anne On My Arm (La Cage)
Mr. Cellophane (Chicago)
All I Care About Is Love (Chicago)
Razzle Dazzle (Chicago)
Pretty Lady (Pacific Overtures)
It Takes a Woman (Hello, Dolly!)
It Only Takes a Moment (Hello, Dolly!)
Bring Him Home (Les Miz)
Stars (Les Miz)
Empty Chairs at Empty Tables (Les Miz)
Anthem (Chess)
We'll Take a Glass Together (Grand Hotel)
Love Can't Happen (Grand Hotel)
Muddy Water (Big River)
Waitin' For the Light to Shine (Big River)
One Song Glory (Rent)
This Is the Moment (Jekyll and Hyde)
I Wanna Be a Producer (The Producers)
Sweet Transvestite (Rocky Horror Show)
You're Timeless To Me (Hairspray)
That's just off the top of my head, but ...
Nope, there's no good songs for men, not then, not now.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
#37
Posted: 6/20/13 at 10:30pm
I'd like to add Jesus Christ Superstar to your list, which in my opinion has some of the most spectacular broadway songs ever written for men. I mean Gethsemane and Judas' Death alone are masterpieces as far as I'm concerned.
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 10:30 PM
#38
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:02pm
Yes because I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy really is the same league as Losing My Mind or The Worst Pies in London.
Anyway you're going way off topic here... All I'm saying is I think some of the female roles that Sondheim has written outweigh the male roles, not always the case, only sometimes. It was just something I wondered did others think about it.
Anyway you're going way off topic here... All I'm saying is I think some of the female roles that Sondheim has written outweigh the male roles, not always the case, only sometimes. It was just something I wondered did others think about it.
#39
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:08pm
Yes because I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy really is the same league as Losing My Mind or The Worst Pies in London.
Yes, you should tell that to millions of WWI and WWII soldiers who marched to it, and then ask any survivors if they give a flying f*ck about the Worst Pies in London or Losing My Mind.
The power of Broadway music and lyrics go way beyond your little world. You should really think about broadening your horizons. Or at least educating yourself, just a little bit.
And all that jazz, feel free to "ask" Jesus Christ Superstar, or add it. You'll get no complaints from me. I love that score.
Yes, you should tell that to millions of WWI and WWII soldiers who marched to it, and then ask any survivors if they give a flying f*ck about the Worst Pies in London or Losing My Mind.
The power of Broadway music and lyrics go way beyond your little world. You should really think about broadening your horizons. Or at least educating yourself, just a little bit.
And all that jazz, feel free to "ask" Jesus Christ Superstar, or add it. You'll get no complaints from me. I love that score.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
#40
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:22pm
I'll grant you that the women in Follies got the better songs, but that's because it's a show about girls in the Follies. A Little Night Music only has three principal male characters as opposed to the five principal female characters in the show. I think he may have written more songs for female characters, but I don't think that the songs he wrote for male characters were of a lesser quality.
A Funny Thing Happened... has some pretty great songs for men ("Comedy Tonight", "Everybody Ought To Have a Maid", etc).
Marry Me A Little and Being Alive are two songs for men that I think are pretty profound.
"Giants in the Sky" is my favorite from Into the Woods. I think it's as good as any of the female songs in show. Also, both "Agony" songs were hilarious.
I think George was a stronger character than Dot. "Finishing the Hat" is as great as "Move On".
I could go on.
A Funny Thing Happened... has some pretty great songs for men ("Comedy Tonight", "Everybody Ought To Have a Maid", etc).
Marry Me A Little and Being Alive are two songs for men that I think are pretty profound.
"Giants in the Sky" is my favorite from Into the Woods. I think it's as good as any of the female songs in show. Also, both "Agony" songs were hilarious.
I think George was a stronger character than Dot. "Finishing the Hat" is as great as "Move On".
I could go on.
I like your imperturbable perspicacity.
#41
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:26pm
Oops, sorry for the typo. It's fixed now!
Yankee Doddle Dandy is even more of a standard than Losing My Mind, which I adore btw.
Yankee Doddle Dandy is even more of a standard than Losing My Mind, which I adore btw.
#42
Posted: 6/21/13 at 2:08am
"Ben and Buddy to MY mind are supporting roles."
Your mind is definitely wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion. The actors that play all four characters are above the title. This means that the writers, producers, and director, as well as AEA regard them as leads. This is not up for debate, it is simply a fact. Name above the title; everyone agrees you are the lead.
The answer to you question in the thread title is no. Sondheim is on of the few writers who writes with equal quality for men and women. The list of great songs that he has written for men is just about equal to the list of great songs he has written for women.
As for your idea of Sweeney Todd just standing around and brooding... if the national tour starring David Hess is the only production that you have ever seen, I understand your confusion. That, however, is not necessarily the typical case.
Your mind is definitely wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion. The actors that play all four characters are above the title. This means that the writers, producers, and director, as well as AEA regard them as leads. This is not up for debate, it is simply a fact. Name above the title; everyone agrees you are the lead.
The answer to you question in the thread title is no. Sondheim is on of the few writers who writes with equal quality for men and women. The list of great songs that he has written for men is just about equal to the list of great songs he has written for women.
As for your idea of Sweeney Todd just standing around and brooding... if the national tour starring David Hess is the only production that you have ever seen, I understand your confusion. That, however, is not necessarily the typical case.
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