Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#1
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:57am
I feel like his female characters are stronger than his male characters for most of his shows. I mean Sweeney Todd was always, to my mind, Mrs. Lovett's show. To me, she carries it, it is she who pushes Sweeney forward (in a kind of Lady Macbeth way...) etc., and it really feels like it was Angela Lansbury's show when the original production opened in 1979. Then in Follies, he writes brilliantly for Sally and Phyllis, but I always feel like Ben and Buddy are supporting players to their female counterparts. Then in Into the Woods, I think the Baker's Wife and the Witch are two of the greatest female roles written for women in the musical theatre, and I don't think there are any male roles in ITW that quite match up to these two roles... The Baker always plays second fiddle to the Baker's Wife in my opinion, and the Witch is the central catalytic figure in the whole show... I suppose Bobby would be Sondheim's finest role written for a man, in a show that has a plethora of excellent female roles that again are somewhat stronger in many ways than their 'husbands' in the show... What do people think about this? What about some of his other shows? Sunday in the Park, or Anyone can Whistle, for example? Does Mr. Sondheim write stronger material for his female characters, or do you think there's a good balance in most of his works?
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 11:57 AM
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#2
Posted: 6/20/13 at 11:59amI think he writes equally well for men and women.
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#2
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:03pm
I think it's true of most composers... Gershwin, Porter and Berlin were at their best writing for Ethel Merman. Rodgers & Hammerstein score two of their biggest hits writing for Mary Martin.
Female characters can present an emotional punch. The best Broadway torch songs are written for women. Men are better with angry songs: Sweeney's Epiphany, Buddy's The Right Girl and Ben's breakdown that climaxes Live Laugh Love.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#3
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:04pmEvery composer writes better for women, they always get the showstoppers.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#4
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:05pm
While Company has some interesting women, I feel the men are just as well written. Same with Assassins, Pacific Overtures, Road Show, Frogs, etc. I just think that the shows you mention happen to be the ones he wrote that feature women.
I also think Sondheim, because of his painful relationship with his own mother, has a tendancy to write women in a more complex, darker way than many other writers may.
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#6
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:24pm
I think it says as much about the observer here (meaning you) as the writer.
You are drawn to the female roles, the big belty voices, and the Divas, a lot more than you are drawn to the male roles.
Admit it.
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#7
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:37pm
It's not even that. I just think some of the songs he wrote for women are sometimes better. I mean Losing My Mind for example, even though it can be sung by guys... I suppose he gave the men Johanna and Not While I'm Around, Being Alive, among others...so can't complain too much! Character-wise though, apart from the music, the female roles are more rounded and are sometimes better constructed - Mrs. Lovett has everything - drama, comedy, physical comedy, etc. Sweeney just stands there, brooding... The Baker is always kind of a throwaway role, and the two Princes are caricatures, whereas the Baker's Wife has all the heart, comedy, depth, etc... Just an observation, and again, only looking at certain shows as someone pointed out - he writes in a more balanced manner for genders in some of his other shows! I suppose Sunday in the Park falls into this category - both leading roles in that show may be the most equally constructed...
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 12:37 PM
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#8
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:43pm
I suppose he gave the men Johanna and Not While I'm Around, Being Alive, among others...so can't complain too much!
"Being Alive" is, arguably, one of the best songs ever written for the the American musical theater.
So the answer to your question is "No."
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#9
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:46pm
Sweeney just stands there brooding?
The Baker is a throwaway role?
Oh, lordy.
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#10
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:50pmIn Assassins i think that he wrote great for all the male characters, and they are stronger than the female ones, but that might only be since its such a male heavy show with few female characters
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#11
Posted: 6/20/13 at 12:55pm
Although the female characters in some Sondheim shows might seem more interesting or memorable to some (the same can be said for the oeuvre of a great many musical composers), I don't think he shortchanges the men in terms of his songwriting talent.
Arguably, Sondheim's greatest score is Pacific Overtures, written for an all-male cast with very few female characters.
Then consider the great songs he's written for men in his other scores, including: Being Alive, Buddy's Blues, Everybody Says Don't, Pretty Women, Good Thing Going, The Road You Didn't Take, Johanna, Epiphany, No More, Giants in the Sky, Now, Later, Sorry-Grateful, Marry Me A Little, Live, Laugh, Love, The Right Girl, The Ballad of Booth, I Am Going to the Lordy, Finishing the Hat, In Praise of Women, It Would Have Been Wonderful, Agony
And that doesn't even scratch the countless great Sondheim songs that were written for male and female characters.
Updated On: 6/20/13 at 12:55 PM
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#12
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:37pmPerhaps instead of "Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?" the title of this thread should have been "I Like Sondheim's songs for women better than his songs for men"
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#13
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:39pmNo it wouldn't, because I was looking for others' opinions, which I was given. I asked the question, and I was given answers.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#14
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:40pm"I Like Sondheim's songs for women better than his songs for men--HOW ABOUT YOU?
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#15
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:42pmNah, I'm content with the thread title I chose...
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#16
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:43pm
For me the problem is that no matter how spectacular a male solo may be, (Being Alive is a masterpiece of a song), it's never going to be as spectacular as a female solo.
But Sondheim has indisputably written some amazing songs for men.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#17
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:45pm^ Maybe you need to hear some more male solos.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/24/09
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#18
Posted: 6/20/13 at 1:56pm
I love the song "Finishing the Hat". I think it's one of the best songs Sondheim wrote.
I also like "No One Has Ever Loved Me".
And, his "Soliloquy" of sorts "Epiphany".
I think Sondheim is one of the very few composers who is able to write for either a man or a woman.
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/18/10
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#19
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:00pmAll I know is my favorite Male solos are written by Rodgers and Hammerstein: they gave us Soliloquy, This Nearly Was Mine, South Pacific, Oh What a Beautiful Mornin', Lonely Room... I think all of these are in the same league as Sondheim's songs for women, but definitely not for men. Apart from maybe Being Alive and Epiphany, I can't really think of any others that really live up to the R&H standard that was set for male musical numbers.
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#20
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:02pm
For many obvious reasons, we all enjoy his diva songs, and it is obvious that he enjoys writing them too.
But to say he writes for women "better" than he writes for men is reductionist and insulting and incorrect. The examples disproving this are many and huge.
One of the greatest comedy songs ever written for the American musical theater was written by Sondheim for Zero Mostel: "Comedy Tonight"
Anyone Can Whistle contains "Everybody Says Don't"--a great character song and an early precursor of the kind of quick-tempo songs he would later wrote for characters of both genders.
Company has the already discussed "Being Alive."
Yes, of course, Follies contains all the female diva pastiche numbers and solos for Sally and Phyllis, but if you don't value Buddy's two songs ("Buddy's Blues" and "The Right Girl") as great songs, you're missing out. And Ben's "The Road You Didn't Take" is a art song, on the level of Schubert or Schumann.
As mentioned, Pacific Overtures is written for an all-male cast. If you don't know that score, you have some treats in store.
I'm sorry you think all Sweeney does is stand around and brood. Check back with us when you're older.
I could go on, but I won't. I'll just say that I was in Chicago this weekend and paid my pilgrimage to the actual Seurat painting, where I stood with my headphones on and listened to selections from the score. The solos Sondheim wrote for Mandy Patinkin are among the best writing he has ever done. I urge you to listen to that score too, with or without the painting in front of you.
And, them, of course, there are the duets, in which usually 50 percent is sung by the man. Unless, of course, the duet is "In Praise of Women" or "Pretty Women"--both GREAT songs--in which both parts are sung by men.
So, yes, it's okay that you like the divas. We all do. But that doesn't mean he writes them better.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/27/12
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#21
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:03pmMaria and Something's Coming easily rivals Oh, What a Beautiful Mornin'. To me, Surrey is Curly's stronger song
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#22
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:07pmAs others have said, there's really no evidence to say that Sondheim writes better for one gender or another. His songs are brilliant, period. What you might also be noticing is not that he writes "better" for women, but that he writes women well. I don't think theatre suffers from this much, but film actresses often complain about the dearth of well-written, complex female roles. Sondheim writes incredibly complex women, he isn't condescending towards them and he "gets" his female characters as well as he gets his male characters. I think that's an impressive quality that some of the greats of musical theatre share (like Rodgers & Hammerstein, the Gershwins, Kander & Ebb, etc).
Does Sondheim write better for women than for men?#24
Posted: 6/20/13 at 2:12pm
Then in Follies, he writes brilliantly for Sally and Phyllis, but I always feel like Ben and Buddy are supporting players to their female counterparts.
The Road You Didn't Take
Buddy's Blues
Live, Laugh, Love
The Right Girl (even though it's probably my personal least favorite in the show)
These are not supporting players.
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