#26
Posted: 10/27/03 at 4:53pm
Maude's maid was Heromine Baddley.
PEACE.
Has the Golden Age of Musicals past? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 10/27/03 at 4:53pm
That IS a great point, robbiej--and prob reason why I can't stand alot of new composers. I think it's also the reason why folks have embraced shows like Hairspray, The Producers, Avenue Q, etc--shows that have more or less returned to a more traditional musical comedy style (even when satirizing it).
#28
Posted: 10/27/03 at 4:56pm
There were two Hermione's. (Three now with that infernal Harry Potter.)
Hermione Baddeley played Mrs. Naugatuck on Maude. She was also a stage actress of much renown mostly in London but in NY as Sissy Goforth in the first production of Williams' The Milk Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore.
La Gingold was unique and Gigi (Golden Globe winner) and The Music Man only hint at her outrageousness.
Hermione Baddeley played Mrs. Naugatuck on Maude. She was also a stage actress of much renown mostly in London but in NY as Sissy Goforth in the first production of Williams' The Milk Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore.
La Gingold was unique and Gigi (Golden Globe winner) and The Music Man only hint at her outrageousness.
"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true. And that would be unacceptable."
--Carrie Fisher
#29
Posted: 10/27/03 at 4:58pm
are all monitors not showing the "irony" footnote of my post? just curious...
Will: They don't give out awards for helping people be gay... unless you count the Tonys.
"I guarantee that we'll have tough
times. I guarantee that at some point
one or both of us will want to get out.
But I also guarantee that if I don't
ask you to be mine, I'll regret it for
the rest of my life..."
#30
Posted: 10/27/03 at 5:13pm
How funny, robbiej!-
Your Sondheim argument is exactly what a professor of mine once explained to me regarding Picasso - who started out as a brilliant academic painter who could paint in a Renaissance manner before he was 20. Because he knew the classical means of constructing a picture, Picasso knew how to deconstruct it (from Cubism onward) better than any of his contemporaries. Nowadays, most painters don't even know how to draw.
Different artist, same idea. Though personally, I think of Sondheim as the Poussin of Broadway.
Your Sondheim argument is exactly what a professor of mine once explained to me regarding Picasso - who started out as a brilliant academic painter who could paint in a Renaissance manner before he was 20. Because he knew the classical means of constructing a picture, Picasso knew how to deconstruct it (from Cubism onward) better than any of his contemporaries. Nowadays, most painters don't even know how to draw.
Different artist, same idea. Though personally, I think of Sondheim as the Poussin of Broadway.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#31
Posted: 10/27/03 at 5:25pm
i've always heard that same artist line of thought with Pollock, not Picasso. Sometimes you can't convince folks that the early Pollocks are his because they are in such a different style than that which made him eventually famous. His paintings from the 1930's are much closer to Grant Wood than to abstract or modern art.
Will: They don't give out awards for helping people be gay... unless you count the Tonys.
"I guarantee that we'll have tough
times. I guarantee that at some point
one or both of us will want to get out.
But I also guarantee that if I don't
ask you to be mine, I'll regret it for
the rest of my life..."
#32
Posted: 10/27/03 at 5:47pm
MasterLcZ,
You beat me to the analogy I was going to make. As an artist myself, I had heard and realized that about Picasso (and Pollock). In reading RobbieJ's post about Sondheim, I suddenly realized that the same theory applied to him and those who tried to emulate him. Before one can deconstruct or change any art form, one must understand and master the essentials of it.
I don't think this necessarily means the golden age of musicals has passed forever. Like evrything else, I think theater comes in waves and the next wave will be a return to shows that have a good book and great music.
You beat me to the analogy I was going to make. As an artist myself, I had heard and realized that about Picasso (and Pollock). In reading RobbieJ's post about Sondheim, I suddenly realized that the same theory applied to him and those who tried to emulate him. Before one can deconstruct or change any art form, one must understand and master the essentials of it.
I don't think this necessarily means the golden age of musicals has passed forever. Like evrything else, I think theater comes in waves and the next wave will be a return to shows that have a good book and great music.
http://www.danperezgallery.com
#33
Posted: 10/27/03 at 6:02pm
Some very thoughtful points being made, in my humble opinion. Change is indeed the only constant in all our lives. Change for change sake however is the least palatable of all.
I believe that solid writing is at the core of every musical that has had a life. Sometimes it may be the songs, sometimes the book, a few times, magically, the book, music and lyrics are solid and a "great" musical results. Great musicals don't happen every season. Which is not to say they are not being written. Many very talented composers and lyricists and librettists are writing ever day but how can we know if they are great? There remain no opportunities for new musicals to play in front of audiences. Economics have astromically raised the risk level of producing new musicals. New musicals don't get produced in the numbers of years past. Of those that do, originality is shunted aside for the grail of guaranteed advance sales.
I wouldn't fault Sondheim for changing the course of the musical. There are deserved accolades for his innovative work. But his work is grounded as remarked earlier by Robbie I believe on learning and understanding the craft of the traditional musical. The criticism in my opinion should be reserved for producers who look for and promote copy-cat work by creative types who have no understanding of the basics of musical theatre writing.
The wonderful thing about the musical is that someone can unveil a show that is fresh, alive, and totally outside of the norm raising the standards to which subsequent shows aspire. The sad thing about the business of musical theatre is immediately after that happens everyone else tries to recreate a similar magic as if there is a formula.
If there was a formula every season would be one filled with great musicals. I've no doubt the golden age of the Broadway musical is over. Perhaps the entire concept of live musical story telling will become a relic itself. That's left for the ages.
Meanwhile, where are the Porters, the Berlins, the Gershwins, the Rodgers and Hammersteins, the Lerner and Loewes, the Bernsteins, the Comden and Greens, the Styne, the Merrills, the Kerns, the Dukes, the Loessers, the Arlens, the Weills, the Lanesj, the Hermans of today and of tomorrow?
Surely you're out there somewhere, aren't you?
I believe that solid writing is at the core of every musical that has had a life. Sometimes it may be the songs, sometimes the book, a few times, magically, the book, music and lyrics are solid and a "great" musical results. Great musicals don't happen every season. Which is not to say they are not being written. Many very talented composers and lyricists and librettists are writing ever day but how can we know if they are great? There remain no opportunities for new musicals to play in front of audiences. Economics have astromically raised the risk level of producing new musicals. New musicals don't get produced in the numbers of years past. Of those that do, originality is shunted aside for the grail of guaranteed advance sales.
I wouldn't fault Sondheim for changing the course of the musical. There are deserved accolades for his innovative work. But his work is grounded as remarked earlier by Robbie I believe on learning and understanding the craft of the traditional musical. The criticism in my opinion should be reserved for producers who look for and promote copy-cat work by creative types who have no understanding of the basics of musical theatre writing.
The wonderful thing about the musical is that someone can unveil a show that is fresh, alive, and totally outside of the norm raising the standards to which subsequent shows aspire. The sad thing about the business of musical theatre is immediately after that happens everyone else tries to recreate a similar magic as if there is a formula.
If there was a formula every season would be one filled with great musicals. I've no doubt the golden age of the Broadway musical is over. Perhaps the entire concept of live musical story telling will become a relic itself. That's left for the ages.
Meanwhile, where are the Porters, the Berlins, the Gershwins, the Rodgers and Hammersteins, the Lerner and Loewes, the Bernsteins, the Comden and Greens, the Styne, the Merrills, the Kerns, the Dukes, the Loessers, the Arlens, the Weills, the Lanesj, the Hermans of today and of tomorrow?
Surely you're out there somewhere, aren't you?
Updated On: 10/27/03 at 06:02 PM
#34
Yes, we're here. Most definitely.
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:03pm
Yes, we're here. Most definitely.
#35
Actually, I think Sondheim's position in musical theater will come to be considered analogous to Wagner's in opera: polemicists who argued the seriousness of their craft and introduced radical innovations into the genre. The major difference between them is that Wagner essentially did it alone (tho' funded by King Ludwig) while Sondheim had help from his collaborators.
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:08pm
Actually, I think Sondheim's position in musical theater will come to be considered analogous to Wagner's in opera: polemicists who argued the seriousness of their craft and introduced radical innovations into the genre. The major difference between them is that Wagner essentially did it alone (tho' funded by King Ludwig) while Sondheim had help from his collaborators.
#36
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:10pm
Bwaytheater11, I actually DID hum an entire production concept once. It was a lot of fun. Took a coupla shots of pennicilin afterwards, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#37
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:20pm
In Ethan Mordden's book Broadway Babies (1983) he says the end of the Golden Age was with Chicago (1975). Would he please make up his mind as I hang on his every word!
#38
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:29pm
As someone mentioned before that theater songs do not chart anymore...
This is true in the US but in London it is all over thre place.
There have been many songs that have charted.
The Perfect Year "SUNSET BOULEVARD"
Our Kind of Love "THE BEAUTIFUL GAME"
Night Fever "SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER"
are just some of them...
nd I have to disagree about One Night in Bankok being the last one...No Matter What by Boyzone (from Whistle Down the Wind) charted our top 40 If I am not mistaken.
This is true in the US but in London it is all over thre place.
There have been many songs that have charted.
The Perfect Year "SUNSET BOULEVARD"
Our Kind of Love "THE BEAUTIFUL GAME"
Night Fever "SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER"
are just some of them...
nd I have to disagree about One Night in Bankok being the last one...No Matter What by Boyzone (from Whistle Down the Wind) charted our top 40 If I am not mistaken.
#39
Posted: 10/27/03 at 11:34pm
I personally think that the great age died with the influx of the Beetles, it is then that it seems that musical theater and popular culture really split. From that time the two strems took different directions, going out ward in a shap like a Y. There are a few shows after the fact that attempted to go back to pop culture, most of them failing, and there have been periodic songs that hit the main stream, the last few of which were: This is the moment, and No Matter What (from Whistle down the wind).
I don't take credit for this idea, the thought is taken from an interview with Jon Larson in the NY Times years ago, about Rent. The Article made me think, and I looked back and find that before the Beetles MT was POP, and afterwards you are given a handfull of songs in MT that became POP hits, i.e. Day by Day and Evita stuff if you count Madonna.
STEVOS
I don't take credit for this idea, the thought is taken from an interview with Jon Larson in the NY Times years ago, about Rent. The Article made me think, and I looked back and find that before the Beetles MT was POP, and afterwards you are given a handfull of songs in MT that became POP hits, i.e. Day by Day and Evita stuff if you count Madonna.
STEVOS
"IF I TRY THERE MAY BE A CHANCE / WE COULD LOVE WITH OUR EYES CLOSED/ WITH OUR EYES CLOSED WE COULD CHANGE THE WORLD!"- Stephen Dwight
#40
Posted: 10/28/03 at 12:03am
I'm not sure I follow. The Beetles were first mass produced in the early '40s, and most "Golden Age of Broadway" historians date Oklahoma! (1943) as the opening salvo. Are you saying the Golden Age was over before it began?
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#41
Posted: 10/28/03 at 2:53pm
Namo, I used that from someones earlier post...
CCM '10!
#42
Posted: 10/28/03 at 3:19pm
I hate to sound like an old curmudgeon, but don't you mean Has The Golden Age of Musicals Passed? Or Is The Golden Age of Musicals A Thing of the Past? I'm also a grammar picker!!!
I have a few thoughts of my own. I hope to get to them later this we3k.
Miriam
I have a few thoughts of my own. I hope to get to them later this we3k.
Miriam
Every movement has a meaning--but what the hell does it mean!
#43
Posted: 10/28/03 at 3:33pm
there is a "past/passed" post earlier from me. i really thought Dollypop would notice too. Thanks for making me feel like i'm not the only one who notices. While my typing and grammar and syntax are not perfect, when even the NY Times is making mistakes, it does give pause. And i asked Rob D in another thread if there was a way for the originator to edit the title of the thread, no response...
Will: They don't give out awards for helping people be gay... unless you count the Tonys.
"I guarantee that we'll have tough
times. I guarantee that at some point
one or both of us will want to get out.
But I also guarantee that if I don't
ask you to be mine, I'll regret it for
the rest of my life..."
#44
Posted: 10/28/03 at 8:07pm
Of course it is "passed."
I had a temporary PA taking my dictation when I articualted the post. I expect my PA back next week.
Bulldog.
I had a temporary PA taking my dictation when I articualted the post. I expect my PA back next week.
Bulldog.
#45
Posted: 10/29/03 at 1:21am
I mean the influx to america.
STEVOS
STEVOS
"IF I TRY THERE MAY BE A CHANCE / WE COULD LOVE WITH OUR EYES CLOSED/ WITH OUR EYES CLOSED WE COULD CHANGE THE WORLD!"- Stephen Dwight
#46
Posted: 10/29/03 at 1:22pm
just so as to not only pick on BULLDOG, isn't it "Beatles"?
Will: They don't give out awards for helping people be gay... unless you count the Tonys.
"I guarantee that we'll have tough
times. I guarantee that at some point
one or both of us will want to get out.
But I also guarantee that if I don't
ask you to be mine, I'll regret it for
the rest of my life..."
#47
Posted: 10/29/03 at 11:08pm
It has come to my attention that I made a Spelling err....So I am talking about the Band the Beatles, not the VW bug.
STEVOS
STEVOS
"IF I TRY THERE MAY BE A CHANCE / WE COULD LOVE WITH OUR EYES CLOSED/ WITH OUR EYES CLOSED WE COULD CHANGE THE WORLD!"- Stephen Dwight
#48
Posted: 10/30/03 at 11:25am
Obviously, one could write a treatise on this subject. I won't even try but I'd like to put forth my ideas on the subject.
As far back as 1930s it was said that the golden age of musicals was over. Of course, it was not true, but in order to look insightfully into the American musical, one must also examine American history. The turn of the century was a creative time in musicals (not well documented however), but it was economically a boom time in New York. Costs were low and it was very possible to put on a show and recoup its cost in 9 months or less. The influx of immigrants from Europe also added to the creation and stimulation of the economy. Many of these immigrants enjoyed going to shows and to meet the needs of this population, more and more shows were written. Of course, these immigrant groups also had their own theatres scattered across New York. So demand was high. The melodies of the earlier composers, Victor Herebert, European born and bred, were also an inducement to theatregoers. So, a public was hungry for more musicals, producers could raise capital easily, and, more importantly, there were no outside influences such as television, Internet, mass movies. Theatre was the communication. So why not fill the need. While not always easy, it was easier for more composers, librettists, etc. to find a venue for their work, as there was a growing need and demand. And with most of the popular songs coming from Broadway (and with the newly established ASCAP), what could be more effective for generating revenues than Broadway songs?
The crash of 1929 put an end to the Broadway of legend and lore, but a new Broadway grew up, fueled more by dire economcs and the Depression not only of the country, but of the mind and spirit as well. I think that the depression brought forth the greatest profusion of memorable songs in Broadway history because the times called for it: music that could uplift as well as comfort. While costs were higher, people could listen to the radio and buy inexpensive sheet music and learn these songs in the comfort of their homes.
The war years created yet another era in Broadway: a more practical approach to musicals and a shift away from the giddy and heartfelt songs of the Depression. Even a Cole Porter needed a novel approach to song writing.
I've already gone on for too long, but it is a fact that history is the most radical and decisive factor in theatre. Our times do not call for a sophicticated and melodious approach to the theatre of yesteryears. It will be interesting to see what happens as the century moves on.
Miriam
As far back as 1930s it was said that the golden age of musicals was over. Of course, it was not true, but in order to look insightfully into the American musical, one must also examine American history. The turn of the century was a creative time in musicals (not well documented however), but it was economically a boom time in New York. Costs were low and it was very possible to put on a show and recoup its cost in 9 months or less. The influx of immigrants from Europe also added to the creation and stimulation of the economy. Many of these immigrants enjoyed going to shows and to meet the needs of this population, more and more shows were written. Of course, these immigrant groups also had their own theatres scattered across New York. So demand was high. The melodies of the earlier composers, Victor Herebert, European born and bred, were also an inducement to theatregoers. So, a public was hungry for more musicals, producers could raise capital easily, and, more importantly, there were no outside influences such as television, Internet, mass movies. Theatre was the communication. So why not fill the need. While not always easy, it was easier for more composers, librettists, etc. to find a venue for their work, as there was a growing need and demand. And with most of the popular songs coming from Broadway (and with the newly established ASCAP), what could be more effective for generating revenues than Broadway songs?
The crash of 1929 put an end to the Broadway of legend and lore, but a new Broadway grew up, fueled more by dire economcs and the Depression not only of the country, but of the mind and spirit as well. I think that the depression brought forth the greatest profusion of memorable songs in Broadway history because the times called for it: music that could uplift as well as comfort. While costs were higher, people could listen to the radio and buy inexpensive sheet music and learn these songs in the comfort of their homes.
The war years created yet another era in Broadway: a more practical approach to musicals and a shift away from the giddy and heartfelt songs of the Depression. Even a Cole Porter needed a novel approach to song writing.
I've already gone on for too long, but it is a fact that history is the most radical and decisive factor in theatre. Our times do not call for a sophicticated and melodious approach to the theatre of yesteryears. It will be interesting to see what happens as the century moves on.
Miriam
Every movement has a meaning--but what the hell does it mean!
Updated On: 10/30/03 at 11:25 AM
#49
Posted: 10/30/03 at 10:17pm
You are on the mark Miriam, as you often are. The socio-economics of any period are indeed strong influencers on the contemporary popular culture. As a result today's musicals are products of the "me first," "politically correct" climate that has been building since the late 1960s. (Yes, Stevos, The BeAtles.)
It is interesting that opera, for example, has been nurtured over the centuries and continues to hold facsination for afficionados and are themselves the foundations of many companies. Why not classic American/English musicals? Why not a company that only mounts musicals in rep each season, full productions, playing 6 to 8 performances a week? (Are the Weisslers our only hope?)
I've no doubt that musicals in rep will come to pass eventually. It will be the only way to see musicals live on stage. Broadway will literally become a theme-park with one-hour "musicals" to lure tourists, all featuring tiny little performers with squeaky voices, of both sexes. Worse yet, cruise-ship entertainment featuring robotic performers with pre-recorded music. YIKES!
Bulldog.
It is interesting that opera, for example, has been nurtured over the centuries and continues to hold facsination for afficionados and are themselves the foundations of many companies. Why not classic American/English musicals? Why not a company that only mounts musicals in rep each season, full productions, playing 6 to 8 performances a week? (Are the Weisslers our only hope?)
I've no doubt that musicals in rep will come to pass eventually. It will be the only way to see musicals live on stage. Broadway will literally become a theme-park with one-hour "musicals" to lure tourists, all featuring tiny little performers with squeaky voices, of both sexes. Worse yet, cruise-ship entertainment featuring robotic performers with pre-recorded music. YIKES!
Bulldog.
#50
Posted: 10/31/03 at 2:29am
"As a result today's musicals are products of the "me first"...climate..." So, Bulldog, you have seen AVENUE Q!!!
(Description to a "T". And I don't find that a good thing.)
(Description to a "T". And I don't find that a good thing.)
Rest in peace, Iflitifloat.
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