How come Columbia's cast albums were always so superior up through the 70s- Page 2

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 5:41pm

Mark just so you know i'm not lieing here's my Candide CD taken with my webcam https://www.sendspace.com/file/juuycr

It was in your lismania that you mentioned they used the mono Music Man--no big deal at all.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 10:50pm

Ok they did redo it because mine says STEREO and has the anti-piracy logo above it.

Maybe they have corrected PAJAMA GAME a well. (It says STEREO when it is and always was mono. There was never even a fake stereo issue.)

One oddity about Columbia: Around 1963 they started releases fake stereo versios of thier older cast albums: FINIAN'S RAINBOW, KISS ME KATE, SOUTH PACIFIC, GENTLEMEN PREFER BLONDES, KISMET, HOUSE OF FLOWERS. MOST HAPPY FELLA (highlights) as well as the studio casts of BABES IN ARMS, GIRL CRAZY, BOYS FROM SYRACUSE, OH, KAY!, and ON YOUR TOES. Then they abruptly stopped. No PAJAMA GAME or TREE GROWS IN BROKLYN. Did they realize that these fake stereos were not an improvement?

Victor also did a few fake stereo cast albums: BRIGADOON, PAINT YOUR WAGON, DAMN YANKEES!, FANNY, PETER PAN, SILK STOCKINGS, ALLEGRO, PIPE DREAM, ME AND JULIET, HIGH BUTTON SHOES, and WISH YOU WERE HERE were all done.

[monestere]

Posted: 11/25/08 at 1:21am

All of the other major labels had recording equipment as sophisticated as Columbia Records did but it was the application of that technology that significantly differed. For instance, all of the albums produced by Goddard Lieberson sounded great because he put together a hand picked ensemble of engineers, technicians and general personnel who always worked with him and produced consistently excellent recordings. Beyond this Lieberson consulted with many of the great musical theater composers on how they would prefer to have their works recorded and most if not all gave him the impression that an original cast (or film sound track) album of a musical play’s song score should be first and foremost an aural document of the music, not a mere souvenir of the play for which the music was written. That is why Lieberson produced his recordings with instrumental lead-ins and little or no dialogue and sometimes the music was edited to allow the song to speak for itself rather than within the context of the play. The score came first in his mind and he wanted to preserve as much of the show’s actual score as was possible on a single LP (and in one magnificent instance, when he realised that Frank Loesser’s “The Most Happy Fella” was more an opera than Broadway musical and could not be condensed without undermining the musical presentation, he recorded the entire play as a landmark 3 LP set). That is one of the reasons why (besides Merman and the freshness of hearing the genuine original cast that introduced the songs) the original 1959 Cast Album from “Gypsy” is superior to the recent Patty Lupone revival album, which features additional dance music and deleted songs not on the 1959 original. The Lupone “Gypsy” was produced as a souvenir of that production, not as an aural document of Jule Styne & Stephen Sondheim’s “Gypsy” and this is obvious when you listen to it, even though it can be enjoyed as such, especially if you have not heard the Merman recording of the score. The same is true of the recent revival of “South Pacific”. In these cases more is not always better, especially if that is all the recording has to offer. Lieberson’s recording of the 1962 Jule Styne, Comden & Green “Subways are for Sleeping”, although from a show that was not a major hit, was one of his personal favourite scores and you can tell by listening to his cast album from this show. It is one of the most brilliantly engineered, audiophile quality recordings ever produced and its realistic sound still challenges the best music playback systems of today and puts most of today’s digital recordings to shame. “Subways are for Sleeping” not only became a cult favourite for the musical genre but is one of the few musical cast albums also coveted by audiophiles.

RCA produced hotter sounding albums because their cast albums were produced and recorded by the label's pop music division. Lieberson insisted that the cast albums be produced by the Columbia Masterworks Classical division and these albums were recorded as classical works. RCA did not do this until the late 1970’s when Thomas Z. Shepherd, Lieberson’s protégée, joined that label.

It is an even odder fact that the other producers & engineers at Columbia Masterworks made some of the most mediocre sounding stereo classical recordings of the 1950’s & 60’s while RCA, under the brilliant producer John Pfeiffer, produced the legendary RCA “Living Stereo” classical recordings which still sound better than the majority of classical recordings made today. This is an example of how much of an impact great producers like Lieberson & Pfeiffer can have on a label’s recorded legacy.

Updated On: 11/25/08 at 01:21 AM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/25/08 at 2:44am

FrontRow said: "Ok they did redo it because mine says STEREO and has the anti-piracy logo above it."

Yeah, must be a new printing--Candide's remaster came out in 2003 didn't it? And that FBI warning wasn't really used till 2005 I think.

As for the awful fake stereo--add Guys and Dolls to your list--as I mentioned my mom bought it as a teen much to her upset. I still wonder if ANYONE thought fake stereo sounded decent.

monestere thanks for a great post! All that makes sense, and I didn't knwo that about the classical divisions. Speaking of Gypsy, the most recent remaster had Shepherd using many different takes--he justifies why in the liner notes--do you have any objection to this?

Updated On: 11/25/08 at 02:44 AM

[monestere]

Posted: 11/25/08 at 5:20am

“Speaking of Gypsy, the most recent remaster had Shepherd using many different takes--he justifies why in the liner notes--do you have any objection to this?”

No I have no problem with it; Shepherd did a wonderful remastering of this classic recording and his reasons for using different takes makes sense and more importantly seems to have little impact on the final result. Merman was a consistent performer and Lieberson often recorded additional takes for safety. By the time of the CD era in the mid 1980’s it was discovered that the CBS back catalogue was not preserved as well as other labels and I have heard instances where on some of Leonard Bernstein’s recordings, portions of the SQ quadraphonic or secondary masters were used to produce the digital remaster because the original tapes were partially damaged beyond repair.

By the way, speaking of quadraphonic, Company was the first cast album recorded specifically for CBS’ SQ quadraphonic 4 channel process. The lead vocals were for the most part recorded isolated from the orchestra on separate tracks and the demands placed on the cast and crew can be seen on the excellent documentary of the Company recording sessions which is now on DVD. Lieberson did not care for the SQ process but Thomas Shepherd made good use of it on several recordings like Bernstein’s Mass. The good news about Company being recorded this way is that when Larry Kert, the greatest Bobby of them all, took over the role from Dean Jones very soon after the cast album was recorded, the multi track recording made it possible for Kert to be brought into the studio later and record his vocals of Bobby’s songs to the identical orchestral tracks used for Jones. Thomas Shepherd knew that Kert was the definitive Bobby at the time and wanted to preserve his performance in the role so when the entire Broadway cast including Kert was ready to take the show to London after the Broadway run ended, Shepherd convinced CBS to record Kert’s vocals this way and money was allotted to re-record the one song that could not be done with existing tracks, “Barcelona” and the resulting remixed Larry Kert album was released only in the UK, labeled as the “London Cast Recording”, which it was since virtually the entire cast in the London production was in the Broadway one. Kert’s electrifying still unsurpassed performance of “Being Alive” can be heard as a bonus track on the Sony CD of the “Company” cast album. Kert’s presence on this hybrid London/Broadway cast album of Company instead of the inferior Dean Jones completely transforms the Original Broadway Cast recording of “Company” and pushes it far above any later recordings of the score. It is, in my opinion, the definitive recording of “Company” featuring the definitive Bobby and it should be released as a separate CD by Sony.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/25/08 at 6:05am

Yeah my used record of Company, how I first heard the score, was quadrophonic, though I didn't have the system to play it. I always wondered if they coulda used it for a surround mix, but I'm not too knowledgeable about all that--but I think that that's why the first Company CD transfer had some weird balance issues--because that was the source. For the current remaster they did a better job. (I had read that ALNM, produced by Lieberson, was quad at one time too but didn't notice any similar probs on its old CD issue).

The Kert CD was briefly released on CD, I have a used copy of it on West End Sony. I love his vocals (although I also have a soft spot for Jones' more pained delivery) but HATE how you can hear an echo of Dean's vocals underneath... Still, I wish more had been included as bonus tracks on the Company remaster--at least Barcelona and maybe Someone is Waiting--there's more than enough room

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/25/08 at 7:51pm

The Larry Kert Cd was issued by Sony U.K. and was also released in Canada but was never released in the U.S. (none of the Sony West End series were) but stores like Footlight carried it as an import.

That explains why it is so rare in the U.S.

Thanks Monestere for your fascinating background. I remember later presings of the stereo COMAPNY used the Quad Lp masters and I liked how the stereo spread was separated into 4 distinct channels. THere was also a quad NIGHT MUSIC but it wasn't as effective.

[bk]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 1:05am

a) Lieberson was the best cast album producer ever - no one ever came close to his genius.

b) Thomas Z. Shepherd's mucking around with Lieberson's brilliant Gypsy recording - sorry, but let me say this as kindly as possible - who the hell does he think he is remixing a perfect cast album? Using a different line of Merman's? I think Styne, Sondheim, and Lieberson used the take they wanted and how DARE anyone change it? Fixing a trumpet note that Mr. Styne approved? Sorry, bad form. And let me tell you this: If some record producer went in and say used a few different takes of vocals in Company's cast album, or "fixed" some orchestra thing, how happy do you think Mr. Shepherd would be? He'd be screaming bloody murder. No one, least of all Mr. Lieberson, needs anyone to screw with history and someone's work. And now, we only have the redo - shame on him, shame on Columbia for allowing it. You don't muck around with history and brilliant work, especially when the people who did it are no longer with us. It wasn't broken and didn't need Mr. Shepherd's "help." I shall now get off my soapbox.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 1:09am

I get that. And Shepherd is pretty notorious for his ego isn't he? Didn't even Sondheim, who at first had a great relationship with him, end up cross with him? or something?

Still... Regardless I find that remaster of Gypsy pretty great.

[bk]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 10:33am

I don't listen to it - I have the original CD, it's Mr. Lieberson's work, sounds great, and that's what I play. If, some fine day, someone without Mr. Shepherd's chutzpah, remasters the ORIGINAL recording of Gypsy, I'll be first in line to give it a listen.

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 10:50am

I've watched clips of the documentary about the recording of Company and I'm guessing that Thomas Shepherd's behavior is just the tip of the iceberg?

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 2:25pm

I mean his behavior in the documentary is just a mere glimpse of what Shepherd's like in real life, isn't it?

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 5:56pm

bk, while remastering is not always to the benfit of the recording, that early 80s Columbia pressing of Gypsy sounds *unbearably poor*--the vinyl I bougth used sounds FAR more dunamic. That's one reason I never -lay it (and I actually prefer some of Shepherd's choices thoough I agree that that wasn't his place to do).

Matt, yeah and in 1970 Shepherd was pretty new to producing records without Lieberson--so he was trying to prove himself but didn't have the ego he apparantly started to have at RCA. Still, he gave us some super cast albums.

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 11/26/08 at 6:33pm

As a GYPSY fanatic, I applaud Thomas Shepherd's remastering of the OBC, particularly his adding a bit of dance music in Act One and his adding Louise's delight at dancing with Tulsa. The whole album sounds great to me and surpasses all the other GYPSY's.

Also, someone spoke at length about Columbia's SUBWAYS ARE FOR SLEEPING. I love that album with its catchy score and superior sound. I would include it in my box of CD's to take to my desert island.

[bk]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 12:14am

Well, I'm glad that a couple of you like that Mr. Shepherd changed one of the greatest albums in cast album history. Maybe one fine day Mr. Shepherd will go in and change one of your beloved cast albums - you know, a new vocal line there, some extraneous cast squeals here, changing the intention of the original creator's of the album. Peachy.

As to Subways - since I reissued it and had complete control over the remastering, I could have changed a few things too - I had all the original material and all the elements. But - know what? I'm not God, and I didn't do it. What I DID do was listen to the brilliant vinyl and try to match that as closely as possible, while extending the dynamic range a little in the mastering phase - the result is brilliant Lieberson sound with no mucking around from the likes of me.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 2:04am

Re: GYPSY

On the plus side the Sony remaster is far more dynamic than the original CD release. I wish that they had included the original takes in the main body and put the altered takes on as "bonus" tracks so people like BK would at least have that option. I too grew up with the LP and memorized every nuance. Even the different instrumental "punch" in the middle of "Together" still startles me when I hear the remaster. I kind of like that little catch in Merman's voice in the remastered "Rose's Turn" but the original take was fine. I do like the longer version of "...Gimmick." Years ago in a radio interview Maria Karnilova said they had recorded more of her section that was edited out of the released version. It was nice to finally hear it. The longer strip music in "Let Me Entertain You" is kind of pointless. The biggest change that does rankle is the last half of "All I Knead is the Girl" where Tulsa's performance is also markedly different from what was heard on the Lp. Louise's laugh doesn't really add anything there. But overall it is still one of my top favorites.

I have more a problem with the Dieder Deutch remasters on the Sony Broadway label. He used very different takes for several tracks in GENTLEMEN PREFER BLONDES and MISS LIBERTY that sound quite different from the original Lp/78 albums

[gvendo2005]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 8:33am

Updated On: 11/27/08 at 08:33 AM

[bk]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 10:19am

I have no problem with revisionism as long as the original is included or available. Just as I have no problem with a 5.1 stereo remix of a film that was originally in mono - as long as the original mono track is included.

[abitoftap]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 10:50am

I'd love to hear Subways.....from a show and interest in the recording point of view, after following this fascinating thread.
Is it available?
Amazon doesn't appear to have it.

[sondheimgeek]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 11:29am

bk, I love the remastered recording of Subways! I just wanted to give a quick compliment for doing such a wonderful job!

[bk]

Posted: 11/27/08 at 12:34pm

Thanks for the compliment. Subways was one of the first cast albums I bought when I joined the Columbia House Record Club and got my free stereophonic record player for doing so. I loved it then, I love it now, and it was something I was determined to put out - plus we got all the demo stuff on the CD, too, which is fun.

For anyone who wants a copy, I have some, so drop me a line at kritzerland at aol dot com.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/2/08 at 2:08pm

Anyone who doesn't have SUBWAYS should contact BK. The Cd even restores the song to their proper theatre sequence - the LP changed the order to create a better balance of ballads and uptempo songs...something that is usually not necessary when the show is good.

I don't think thr CD was ever sold in stores or on Amazon. As I recall, it was a limited edition available by mail order only, and maybe in a few specialty shops.

Watch for copies of the LP in used recordc stores: Columbia packaged it in their deluxe gatefold jacketed KOS series, with plenty of pictures and a very detailed synopsis inside.

[marknyc]

Posted: 12/2/08 at 4:15pm

"They put out a fancy-looking reissue on cd of South Pacific a few yrs ago with extra tracks. I had this and an older cd of it with a laughing Ezio + Mary on the cover, out from the liberry at the same time. The new one sounded so much worse and tinny!"

The difference is that the first CD is taken from 78s, whereas the new CD is from a recently-discovered magnetic tapes that were recorded simultaneously with the 78s.

I think the tape sounds much better.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 12/2/08 at 5:36pm

I thought this would be a good place to ask--I recently got the Columbia 1958 (?) recording of Wonderful Town--the TV cast with Roz Russell in stereo. The CD doesn't list the orchestrator anywhere oddly. I assume they're the original Don Walker ones? It likewise doesn't list who produced the recording. Either way the sound is just lightyears away from the 1953 OBC (from...Decca?)


Updated On: 12/2/08 at 05:36 PM

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/3/08 at 1:21am

SOUTH PACIFIC - Funny we were just discussing this on the cast album group. This album was recorded both on didc and tape in 1949. The disc masters were sued for the 78 and LP release. The tape was untouched until 1988 when it was released on CD (using the later LP artwork with a photo of Martin and Pinza..the same cover that had been used on the LP from about 1957 onward.) The track of "Carefully Taught" was either an alternate or had been edited to remove the 2nd last line. (The phrase "You've got to be carefully taught" is sung twice, the first time ending on a high note, the second time ending low. The edit jumped from just before the high note to the final "taught.")

Here's where I get confused.

In 1993 Sony Broadway reissued SOUTH PACIFIC using the original LP artwork (the green "Anchor" cover) and then Columbia Braodway Masterworks remastered and re-released it in 1998 again with the green cover. Supposedly the latest reissue is taken from the discs because producer Didier C. Deutsch felt he could get better sound from the discs. (To my ears the sound is a bit brittle, unlike later Columbia albums which have a rich warm sound.) I'll keep you posted as to what we find out.

WONDERFUL TOWN - Eric, I always thought Lieberson produced this album but under the track list it says "Produced for records by Irving Townsend." Townsend was at Columbia until the 1970s when he moved to Columbia Special Products and oversaw their reissues of many show (and personality) albums. (I remember talking to him in 1980 and he was saying then they were going to reissue MR PRESIDENT to tie in with Regan's inauguration. I don't think he is with us now.) as for the orchestrations, they are probably the originals, perhaps augmented for the recording. Decca's OCR is in mono and has that flat brittle sound the label was famous for, but mostly the orchestrations sound the same except where numbers were revamped for the album as in "Christopher Street." Decca was still recording albums for the 78-rpm market in 1953, so WT was kept to 7 ten-inch records: hence no Overture was recorded for the album.