How come Columbia's cast albums were always so superior up through the 70s

Posted: 11/23/08 at 8:14pm

I know this is an odd question/comment but when it comes to classic cast albums, as far as I'm concerned from '49 or so on, a show was always lucky if they signed their contract with Columbia over Capitol or the other major cast album companies.

Now only did the famous Godard Lieberson truly love the art of cast albums (he produced the best and managed to condense the socres in great wasy, fought to have as much music as possible recorded, fought to have shows, like Anyone Can Whistle, recorded, etc) but technically the sound is almost always SO much better. Compare 1949's South Pacific on Columbia to any early 50s cas talbum from someone else. King and I's 1951 original cast album sounds OLDER, as does the 1953 Wonderful Town OBCR. Why? just lack of good equipment and care?

When Columbia went to stereo they created true masterworks--although Candide one of their last mono cast albums still sounds radiant. But West Side Story is hard to believe it was recorded 50 years ago--many pop singles from that same time don't sound nearly as french (recording wise--let alone the music).

Into the 60s I know Dick Jones did a lot of the non Columbia albums for Capitol I think. Funny Thing Happened on th eWay to the Forum, Funny Girl and Zorba are ones he did. And they're ok--I'm sure he loved his craft, but again the actual sound quality just sounds more extreme, less clean and warm than Liberson's for Columbia. Zorba was recorded AFTER Cabaret, but again the sound quality just isn't as good--much moire sharp sounding.

Of course then we get to Jones and Capitol doing the FOllies OBCR in 1971--because Hal Prince was angry at Columbia apparantly. Columbia would have given the show 2 discs, no questions abou tit, so we were left with a badly edited recording. But even so, the actual sound quality isn't nearly as good as the COlumbia SOndheim cast albums that surrounded it--Company and Night Music.

Of course then Thomas Z Shepherd (who did Company) took over, he had been a co producer since a young aage, and although many found him a difficult man, he still did really great cast albums--I know Sondheim followed him to RCA from Pacific Overtures on because of him.

Anyway am I crazy? Anyone else notice how superior these albums are? Does anyone else even care about lame stuff liek this? :P

[jv92]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 8:37pm

Lieberson knew he was trying to preserve a show's score. The other companies were trying to sell records. That's the difference.

Posted: 11/23/08 at 8:41pm

I was going to answer "Godard Lieberson."

They also made a LOT of money on cast albums and so didn't mind spending it- My Fair Lady, Sound of Music and West Side Story (OBC and soundtracks all) sold phenomenally well and proved that you can MAKE money on Broadway albums.

[binau]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 8:44pm

I am shocked at the good quality of WSS and Gypsy OBCs, but thankful.

Posted: 11/23/08 at 9:48pm

Yeah I knew he'd be the main reason. That has to do more with score selection, what to include, what to cut or change, but what surprised me was that sonically the albums are just much better sounding too. Did Columbia have more sophisticated recording equipment? I mean I know the producer plays a part there too, but...

[jv92]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 9:55pm

Lieberson just CARED! Beginning in the 1960s, RCA started to care too. Capitol used a coatroom as a control room for the Follies album. See what you did Hal? See????

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:05pm

Yeah Follies sounds like it was recorded in a cement parking garage. I know Hal regrets it but he had worked with Jones and Capitol before (Zorba--which isn't a bad album actually but is missing the magic Liberson coulda brought to it)

[Dollypop]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:09pm

The worst sounding cast album ever made was COCO with Katherine Hepburn. I think they recorded it in a prison cell.

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:14pm

Lieberson inexplicably passed on FUNNY GIRL (especially strange as Streisand was a Columbia star), and it was recorded by Capital. It's awful - tinny and 'flat'. Streisand hated it.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:37pm

"When Columbia went to stereo they created true masterworks--although Candide one of their last mono cast albums still sounds radiant."

Candide was initially issued only in mono, but it was recorded in stereo or possibly in different takes for mono and stereo, it's hard to tell. The mono version hasn't been available in a very long time (and never on CD).

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:38pm

Columbia had an excellent studio in a converted church on 30th street, which gave their albums a beautiful spacious sound. Though I find their SOUTH PACIFIC and KISS ME KATE a little brittle sounding, starting when they began recording on tape in the early 1950s (A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN onward) the sound improves significantly. Their MOST HPPY FELLA although in mono sounds fantastic. (Note to Eric: CANDIDE was one of their first stereo albums...it just did not get released on a stereo record until 1963. Similarly OH CAPTAIN was taped in stereo but only issued in mono. Columbia Special Products finally released the stereo Lp in 1977.)

RCA use Webster Hall which wasn't quite as good and they tended to record the vocals "hot" which led to some distortion that wasn't all that noticeable on LP but is very noticeable on CD (try 110 IN THE SHADE for an example.)

Both Columbia and RCA had TV networks with deep pockets. Capitol did not. For many years Capitol was the home of the flops: THREE WISHES FOR JAMIE, FLAHOOLEY, BY THE BEAUTIFUL SEA, SAIL AWAY, THE GAY LIFE, WALKING HAPPY...etc.) because they couldn't get the rights to the big hits. They did get MUSIC MAN (because - believe it or not - all the other labels passed on it) and surprisingly got FUNNY GIRL when Columbia decided not to take it even though Barbra Streisand was their artist. Capitol also did not have their own studio and just rented space as needed, usually The Manhattan Center, which was a large reverberant room. That’s why the Capitols of the 60's have so much echo.

Decca's 40s albums were taped in a very dead room which gives their albums flat rather brittle sound. By the 1950s they were less and less interested in show albums but kept re-releasing their best sellers. In the late 1950s they offered "enhanced for stereo" re-releases of OKLAHOMA! CAROUSEL et al that sounded horrible with the sound ill-balanced and very tinny and hollow. Those fake stereo masters were used right up to the end of the LP era (collectors avoid them at all costs.)

Columbia hit gold – literally – with SOUTH PACIFIC selling over a million copies its first year. Profits from that album helped pave the way for the label to take a chance on lesser shows like HOUSE OF FLOWERS. Profits from MY FAIR LADY paid for the cat album and classical divisions for the next 10 years. Note that Columbia hit quite a string of flops in the early 1960s: See my list on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Classic-COLUMBIA-cast-albums-Part-Two-1959-1967/lm/R32USG3UVFN9QP/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:40pm

Yes there are different takes on the stereo CANDIDE which also has dialogue lead-ins not used on the mono Lp.

[Hiram]

Posted: 11/23/08 at 10:41pm

I agree with Dollypop regarding the COCO original cast recording. They actually recorded it a second time because it was so dreadful the first time. And it was only marginally better the second time. I am a huge fan of Ms. Hepburn and ended up buying both lousy copies!

I loved the Columbia recordings. They really were the best thanks to the wonderful Mr. Lieberson. Updated On: 11/23/08 at 10:41 PM

Posted: 11/24/08 at 12:44am

"Candide was initially issued only in mono, but it was recorded in stereo or possibly in different takes for mono and stereo, it's hard to tell. The mono version hasn't been available in a very long time (and never on CD). "

Really? Why did I always assume the CD was mono?? The Disc itself says on it "MONO 360 Sound" on the mock old school Columbia label on the disc, but I haven't listened to it in headphones to see if it was mono or not.

Posted: 11/24/08 at 1:09am

OK you're right of course it is stereo--I dunno why I let the label on the reissued CD fool me. Anyway it's a great album.

I'll have to hear Coco to hear how bad it really is...

Mark thanks for the history of all those recordings. South Pacific is a bit brittle I suppose but like I said it still sounds noticeably better than the Decca R&H musicals of the era. That is truly bizarre how Capitol got Funny Girl. It's a good cast album IMHO cuz of the awesome performances (I much prefer it to the soundtrack) but I can see why Babs hates the sound. I wonder if everyone passed on Forum as well?

And those fake reprocessed stereo recordings are hideous. My mom talks about when she scratched her mom's OBC of Guys and Dolls--this woulda been abotu 1960, after using it for dance rehearsals. She bought her a new one and it was that awful echoey "stereo" one as it was all she could find, and her mom found it unlistenable.

Was Music Man stereo? I have a stereo CD of the OBCR--the first CD release and I used to find it amazingly echoey--it sounded like reprocessed stereo to me. (of course some later cast albums had some problems, I remember many think that the most recent remaster of Chorus Line OBCR is the best cuz they got rid of some of the echo that Godard seems to have put on it to make it sound more live or something. And the original cast of Little Shop of Horrors is very echoey but I think Phil Ramone did that to make it sound like the old Phil Spector pop recordings)

[thtrbear]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:20am

Semi-related tidbits. They put out a fancy-looking reissue on cd of South Pacific a few yrs ago with extra tracks. I had this and an older cd of it with a laughing Ezio + Mary on the cover, out from the liberry at the same time. The new one sounded so much worse and tinny! Not everyone agrees with me tho.

I have a feeling that part of the difference between how good the sound on older cast albums, has to do with how skillfully or not they've been remastered for cd.

I can't believe how good the sound is on the remastered orig. London cast of Oliver! from 1960. I havent heard it for a few yrs but it seemed so much better soundwise than most 50's /60's ocr's I've heard. I've heard a bunch recorded on tape, like Kismet, that don't sound too great.

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:28am

So did Capitol take longer to switch to stereo? Candide was 1956 and recorde din stereo as we've established, but Music Man wasn't recorded in stereo by Capitol (I know cuz I had as a kid the CD reissue of the reconstructed stereo version that I found unlistenable).

thtrbear you're right that plays a part. We've been lucky that most of the Columbia albums have had *really* high quality remasters for CDs. Capitol's have too though, the Angel broadway discs form the early to mid 90s are as ideal as they can get with the recordings IMHO, yet it shows off that the Columbia recordings were just largely better.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:30am

My CANDIDE CD states 360 STEREO SOUND. Some of the attempts to use "authentic" period labels on the CD's went awry. PAJAMA GAME mistakenly uses Columbia's mid 60's design and states it is Stereo. PAJAMA GAME was never issued in stereo - not even fake stereo.

Along the same line Broadway Angel's TV cast album of ANNIE GET YOUR GUN states the disc it is in stereo. Nope - it's mono. Always was.

CCO is very bad. They tried their best with the CD but did not have the original session tapes. Only the LP mix downs.

MUSIC MAN was taped in true stereo and issued in both mono and stereo originally, in a gatefold jacket with the show logo on the front. The orchestra is spread out behind the performers who are mostly stage center.

When Capitol re-released the album in a standard jacket (with the photo of Robert Preston on the cover) they did some electronic gimmickry to bounce voices from left to right...not terribly successfully. If you have the early CD issue (Preston cover) it uses that source, and hast a lot of tape hiss and no bottom end. The Broadway Angel release (with the 1st Lp cover) uses the original stereo mix and sounds much better. Capitol was supposed to delete the older editions when the Broadway Angel releases happened but for some reason they kept that horrible MUSIC MAN disc in print and it is often racked along with the Broadway Angel creating a lot of confusion Unsuspecting customers.

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:36am

Mark, my CD says 360 MONO 360--I'm starring at it right now. Do you think they changed it later? I bought the CD as soon as it came out.. Weird... But yeah it's definetly stereo--I'm glad I got that cleared up. (and classic early extreme stereo with some voices only at one speaker--but it sounds great espcially for 56)

Mark in your amazon listmania of MusicMan you said the ANgel Broadway reissue used Mono. My old cd is the one you mention tho with the fake stereo--wwhy was this done if it was originally stereo anyway?? weird--it's awful

[abitoftap]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:36am

I had an LP reissue of that Oliver from the late 70s, and the prescence and quality of the recording was astounding....it was, wait for it, like being there.
I've got a cd copy (not sure if it's a remaster, which usually, in my experience, means making it louder and upping the bottom end), which is nowhere as good.

Posted: 11/24/08 at 3:32am

People are sometimes down on remasters and it's true some are badly done--even distorted when the volume is upped. But if you, say, compare the original Columbia CD release of Company with the remaster (which added the Kert Being Alive) there's no comparison. Though I know some might quibble--Shepherd for the remaster changed the orpening "busy signal" phone sound because it has always driven all involved crazy that the original one wasn't in the right key as the music version after--sothey fixed this.

(The Gypsy cast album went even further with the remaster againhavign Shepherd using different takes, etc)

[Mama De]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 3:43am

The conversation about the sound quality of those early Columbia cast recordings of Broadway shows makes me nostalgic for all the Columbia LPs my mom used to buy from the Columbia Record Club when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's. Even though we lived in California and never saw a Broadway show when we were kids, the 5 of us used to play those Columbia cast recordings over & over- singing, dancing and acting out the shows! Those recordings transported us to another world! I didn't start going to shows until I was an adult and had a child of my own, and then I started buying cast recordings on CD, but I really wish I had those old Columbia records now!

Updated On: 11/24/08 at 03:43 AM

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 4:09am

"Profits from MY FAIR LADY paid for the cat album and classical divisions for the next 10 years. Note that Columbia hit quite a string of flops in the early 1960s."

I spent 15 or 20 seconds wondering just what "cat album" you were referring to. Duh!

"Yes there are different takes on the stereo CANDIDE which also has dialogue lead-ins not used on the mono Lp."

Are you sure? I know that some people who've compared the two very closely are convinced they are the same, and that the only differences is that the mono cut the dialogue lead-ins, as we know Goddard Lieberson generally preferred little dialogue. But when it was finally issued in stereo, they decided to include them.

I've compared some tracks and most of the ones I've compared sound absolutely identical, but I still wasn't positive. Most people I've spoken to who've compared think the same takes were used on both. Anyway, I don't mean to be challenging and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong because I'm not at all sure myself. I'm just wondering if you heard that someplace official or semi-official or if it's based on your examination of the two (and if you can point to any specific differences, apart from the dialogue lead-ins).

Btw, another odd stereo-mono thing: the CD of the Tenderloin OBCR says it's mono, but it's not.

I'm told that "Cornet Man" on the mono Funny Girl is very clearly a different take, but I've never heard it.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 2:53pm

LOL! Yes I meant to type cast album, not cat album.

CANDIDE: We had the mono when I was growing up and when I later got the stereo edition was surprised to hear a few extra dialogue lead-ins. The actual takes may be the same as far as the music is concerned. (My mono Lp is long gone.)

TENDERLOIN: Oh yes. The disc label says Mono. Never caught that before!

FUNNY GIRL: Yes the "Cornet Man" is different. Again we had the mono Lp when I was growing up. I believe at the end when she sings "Silver plated wah-wah mute" she stylizes the line on the stereo issue and also does some different shout-outs.

Mama De - You CAN get most on CD, and they mostly ahve the same album graphics. See my 3 lists on Amazon for a full listing of what's available.

ERIC: I guess they did change CANDIDE after it was issued. I only got mine from Sony last year. I kept re-ordering it and they kept saying it was out-of-stock. Maybe that is why?

Also you asked: Mark in your Amazon listmania of MusicMan you said the Angel Broadway reissue used Mono. My old cd is the one you mention tho with the fake stereo--why was this done if it was originally stereo anyway?? weird--it's awful

If I did say Angel's MUSIC MAN was in mono tell me where it is so I can correct that. Here's the story on the album from my review:

THE MUSIC MAN original cast Lp was issued in 1958 in a lavish gatefold jacket adorned by the show's colorful poster logo (A cartoon of professor Hill and Marion the Librarian!) The album went right to the #1 position on Billboard's best-selling albums chart where it stayed for 12 weeks.

In the early 60s, Capitol had to press another batch of Lps to meet demand and they re-designed the cover. It was a single pocket jacket, no notes inside, just the songs and cast credits on the back and a colour photo of Preston. The label also doctored the sound for "stereo" bouncing the voices from left to right.

IN 1987 Capitol issued their stereo remix on Compact Disc using the Preston photo cover. No liner notes, and the sound was harsh and tinny.

In 1993, as part of EMI's 40+ series of Broadway Classics reissues on the Broadway Angel label, THE MUSIC MAN was re-released using the original LP cover art. This time it was beautifully remastered and the stereo sound was restored to the original mix with the cast centre-stage. The booklet has fine notes and a detailed synopsis (something all the previous releases lacked.)

In short, IF buying THE MUSIC MAN (and it is a classic original cast album well worth having) be sure you get the remastered version on Broadway Angel. It is #3 in the series of Broadway Classics. Catalogue number: ZDM 7 64663-2.

AVOID the edition on Capitol label with the color photo of Preston. Though that edition was deleted many years ago, copies still turn up.

[WOSQ]

Posted: 11/24/08 at 3:14pm

The mono version of Cornet Man was the last track recorded in the long Funny Girl session.

Barbra was her typical perfectionist self even then and nixed many takes of all her songs. The chorus songs were done first, followed by songs without Barbra (since she was a couple of hours late) and then those requiring Barbra and the chorus and then You Are Woman which left all her solos. All of these had separate mono and stereo takes.

The shout out "We're going home boys!" is actually Barbra telling the musicians that she thought this particular take was going to be good. It was a good take (it was also in the wee small hours of the next morning and everybody was crazy tired), and there is that shout out on the mono version that is not there on the stereo version or the cd. I miss it.